From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 00:10:25 +0300 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32946"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 To: Bob Newell , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 04 23:11:59 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kPBIV-0008So-IT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 23:11:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43860 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kPBIU-0002X1-HK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 17:11:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41308) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kPBH7-0001iR-8c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 17:10:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x542.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::542]:40233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kPBH5-0002vr-8M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 17:10:33 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x542.google.com with SMTP id p13so1303133edi.7 for ; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qFh4/QhqOoXSLsaiFdIYRO5A/bTi+bdHNOhH7O/2riE=; b=rWTzBhoRQ8hHVzyAprL3O/qEwqcGYWmxVXnAkIPBdAJAYHM9/KkUxENOLVjyFGSSGM fGHzapTRIkqZcBPnFWZeh0fEksiqQT6IljmqC+SXDUHIWvte+UaMs1H8hnKJ4NJNcBRY DxGzcGk9wiSW7952V0H5KmhUInFaG//GpMT+7a+f1GtA8MMliXiC/O3uIBJnLM6el8kH wRJ0me4pVj0ceKfzIQWfjhvfmtdNsu4RiJkWLECXsDQXbdw0QVEKawGfsf0ycbSrHL17 T7GYq6wiePJg0NL2BXDxpxusRWoyWn0tVMJhiKu3DjSKp0hpLj5yh9o3Iu4aLbwRAZQ8 8okw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qFh4/QhqOoXSLsaiFdIYRO5A/bTi+bdHNOhH7O/2riE=; b=BQChlUmeTItrM0ED890BkFVIrUOqA4+fjMKFZa18I8YJ3lIWEFeHdH1fSxyZAFI1q+ z+5TnuLuv9AkVDPbhb9qk7H2vmwak/y0iLfvOtP5oR1iX9uV13OMUn2J0GJFUAg6hW6x u+ba8dAMYsnqDM8I5HmyYzkJ9Ua0wf47QORdmujuIfGNjaKjFGyhkQ2AiO4TYWKT0lzp 8BWdbEDUfEphrPo0KDaSp/Dwe9o1yBEYKzFRW72F/5d1wPnuH3sAyIFacX9fUcj/+KDq hhRjY/SutvKNzpCJ7o9KGj11bvTk3ahMcVPBgXmkV/5KJ3Wr0s9Rd6Vb/lqgsvFA38WC R+hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uKYVhG7A5TxR842/sijz/pBrRu5H3ntZVfuurfjdtE0pnFCrk VH4KwrxpXxzBKAWZSrma2xeBBFpnMUL6PA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKQKarR//pE+oZXgf/I3DH3O6Ql7qGBgPzI8fFFhMzt/ZQ1LMxc1HMwRNCz6wUNGwOZ1RfSg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:142c:: with SMTP id c12mr14360850edx.41.1601845827741; Sun, 04 Oct 2020 14:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] ([66.205.71.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm7193831edo.37.2020.10.04.14.10.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Oct 2020 14:10:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::542; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x542.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257054 Archived-At: On 27.09.2020 20:31, Bob Newell wrote: > > In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs > beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say > right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience > is a worthy goal. > > It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users > learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know > that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first > from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing > and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial > and error. I don't remember too much, but: - I went through the manual a few times. Was also puzzled why the trivial functionality (exotic bindings for regular editing commands) needs several pages of instruction, and why the tutorial tells very little about things that would make Emacs more useful than Nano/Notepad/etc. After that, I avoided the "Emacs" bindings anyway for a couple of years by using cua-mode, arrow keys, etc (not sure in which exact order), then eventually migrated to the default bindings except for 'undo'. - I started not with the default configuration but with the "starter kit" by Phil Hagelberg. Its latest iteration lives at https://git.sr.ht/~technomancy/better-defaults. Check out the rationale in the description, too (it's pretty accurate). > We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a > very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such > tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser > tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in > lesser amounts.) > > While we can and should do all we can to make the road > smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely > different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other > "help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's > face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy." I don't think it become too similar to VS Code (and friends) by default anytime soon. But at least it could start giving off a more "polished" impression, both in the UI and the introduction documentation. So that, even to an uninitiated person (but someone with a compatible mindset, perhaps) it would look like a worthy investment of their time. > Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started > with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line > information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code > samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks > politely. That is true.