From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: First draft of the Emacs website Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 16:58:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <87io4lem98.fsf@petton.fr> <56604A9C.7080508@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__1449190707203250907abhmp0003.oracle.com" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449190755 19060 80.91.229.3 (4 Dec 2015 00:59:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 00:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers To: John Yates Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 04 01:59:03 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a4eiD-0002Mu-Qq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 01:59:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38164 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4eiC-0004KX-Vi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 19:59:00 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43082) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4eho-0004DI-Dw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 19:58:38 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4ehh-0001Gw-RZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 19:58:36 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26038) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4ehh-0001Gj-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2015 19:58:29 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id tB40wRDs013403 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 4 Dec 2015 00:58:28 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tB40wRVB029604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 4 Dec 2015 00:58:27 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tB40wRfp006266; Fri, 4 Dec 2015 00:58:27 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195844 Archived-At: --__1449190707203250907abhmp0003.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, =C2=A0 My comments might have suggested that to you, but I don't think they sugges= t that. =C2=A0 I too think the site should address itself to, among others, and in particu= lar, new users and young new users. =C2=A0 I disagree that mention of Lisp need be offputting to such people. On the c= ontrary, I think that we can point to the advantages of Emacs being a Lisp = environment and being user-extensible by way of Lisp (among other advantage= s). =C2=A0 We can agree to disagree about that. But I, no less than you, I think, have= new users and young users in mind.=20 =C2=A0 Just because I have a grey beard, that does not mean that my suggestions ar= e not aimed at those without grey beards and those (with or without beard, = and regardless of color) who might be new users. =C2=A0 If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp or Emacs, = I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being bathed in Lisp an= d being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I (yes, as only a newbie Ema= cs user) could use some simple Lisp to extend and customize Emacs to fit my= 13-year-old self.=20 =C2=A0 That would be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not somethin= g that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same. =C2=A0 It has to be presented carefully, of course. There should be no impression = that one has to know Lisp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean that we can't men= tion Lisp as one of the BIG advantages that Emacs has to offer. Not to ment= ion that would be, well, burying the lead - the main story. IMHO. =C2=A0 Drew, =C2=A0 You and I are old "grey beards".=C2=A0 My point was that mentioning things = that we - as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from i= magining the website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but= _might_ - given an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it.=C2=A0 I= f you accept such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try t= o put yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. =C2=A0 Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first= goal. =C2=A0 /john =C2=A0 On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Drew Adams wrote: FWIW - (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to th= e command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. (= I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.) * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate.=C2=A0 We had better hope t= hat Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an = interest in Lisp, rather than presume it.=C2=A0 Even more off-putting are t= he fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. Not presuming "an interest in Lisp" is not the same as forbidding "any ment= ion of Lisp". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is inappropriate.=20 I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into specif= ic aspects of Lisp.=20 But it can be mentioned that you have available a powerful, easy-to-use (ye= s), very high-level programming language to extend and interact with Emacs.= And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO) * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be verbo= ten in this context. --__1449190707203250907abhmp0003.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John= ,

 

My comments might have suggested = that to you, but I don't think they suggest that.<= /p>

 

I too think the site should address itself to, among = others, and in particular, new users and young new users.=

 

I disagree that mention of Lisp need be offputting= to such people. On the contrary, I think that we can point to the advantag= es of Emacs being a Lisp environment and being user-extensible by way of Li= sp (among other advantages).

 

We can= agree to disagree about that. But I, no less than you, I think, have new u= sers and young users in mind.

 

Just= because I have a grey beard, that does not mean that my suggestions are no= t aimed at those without grey beards and those (with or without beard, and = regardless of color) who might be new users.

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";colo= r:#244061'>If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp= or Emacs, I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being= bathed in Lisp and being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I (yes, as= only a newbie Emacs user) could use some simple Lisp to extend and customi= ze Emacs to fit my 13-year-old self.

That would be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not somet= hing that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same.<= o:p>

 

It has to be presented carefully, o= f course. There should be no impression that one has to know Li= sp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean that we can't mention Lisp as one of the= BIG advantages that Emacs has to offer. Not to mention that = would be, well, burying the lead - the main story. IMHO.<= /span>

 

Drew,

=  

You and I are old &quo= t;grey beards".  My point was that mentioning things that we - as= seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the= website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - g= iven an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it.  If you accept= such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourse= lf in the mindset of such a viewer.

 

Your comments s= uggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first goal.

 

/john

&n= bsp;

On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Dre= w Adams <drew= .adams@oracle.com> wrote:

FWIW -

(My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some= exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be c= orrected.)

I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Em= acs. (I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.)

* Hence any ment= ion of Lisp seems inappropriate.  We had better hope that Emacs' Out-O= f-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp= , rather than presume it.  Even more off-putting are the fine points o= f various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions.<= o:p>

Not presuming "an interest = in Lisp" is not the same as forbidding "any mention of Lis= p". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is inappropriate.

I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into speci= fic aspects of Lisp.

But it can be mentioned that you have available a p= owerful, easy-to-use (yes), very high-level programming language to extend = and interact with Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO)

* Display= ing Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on".

Simple Lisp code need= not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be verboten in this context.<= /span>

= --__1449190707203250907abhmp0003.oracle.com--