From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Demoting `custom-file' to a defvar Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 08:31:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1447000318 14018 80.91.229.3 (8 Nov 2015 16:31:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:31:58 +0000 (UTC) To: bruce.connor.am@gmail.com, Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 08 17:31:46 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvSsb-0005DU-W6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:31:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47968 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvSsa-0003mz-V2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:31:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45471) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvSsP-0003mm-56 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:31:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvSsL-0000qN-Uu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:31:33 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:29821) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvSsL-0000qI-OK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:31:29 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id tA8GVS6u013073 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:31:28 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA8GVRe7005143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:31:28 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA8GVR3u030438; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:31:27 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:193621 Archived-At: > 2015-11-08 4:33 GMT+00:00 Drew Adams : > > [There should also perhaps be some mention of the possibly > > confusing fact that `custom-file' is itself a user option, > > i.e., something managed by Customize! Clearly it is a > > special option, in that you cannot depend on it becoming > > properly defined by loading the file that defines it!] > Thanks for bringing this up Drew. >=20 > Honestly, this sounds like a bug to me. Perhaps there's some > witchcraft involved, but I fail to see how it can be possible to save > `custom-file' via the customization interface and have it be properly > loaded on the next session. >=20 > Unless someone would like to correct me on that, I'd like to > just demote it to a defvar. I don't disagree that it is a gotcha, which is why I mentioned it. (And I've mentioned it before.) I disagree that it should simply be changed to a defvar. (But I don't feel strongly about it.) Please read the doc string of option `custom-file' carefully. IMO, users should be able to take advantage of Customize when defining the value. What's missing is up-front mention of this in the manual, at the place where we explain the init file (node Init File). The general _recommendation_ should be to use `custom-file', and in node `Init File' we should present a simple init-file example that shows how to do this. That's all. The newbie question "Where is my init file?" or "How do I create my init file?" gets asked over and over anyway, even though this is covered in node `Init File'. The same way the node answers that question, it should show users how to set and load `custom-file' in their init files. End of story. Another thing that could help is for Customize to remind (nag) you whenever you try to save anything, if `custom-file' is nil. The nag should point you to the doc about `custom-file' in node `Init File'. An option could turn off this nagging, or a particular response when nagged could turn it off. IOW, the nagging would be for the benefit of newbies, not those who are aware of `custom-file' but prefer, for whatever reason, not to use it.