From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "paul r" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <87ve3bzhyq.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206444360 614 80.91.229.12 (25 Mar 2008 11:26:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:26:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Bastien Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 25 12:26:30 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Je7IC-0006MU-8o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:26:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Je7Ha-0004kf-QE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:25:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Je7HU-0004ju-Sa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:25:28 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Je7HU-0004jT-2L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:25:28 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Je7HT-0004jN-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:25:27 -0400 Original-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Je7HT-0002eV-Dk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:25:27 -0400 Original-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so3224166fga.30 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:25:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=flC9fK9noDKLG4HdB8XKNVu3ZYYHAdldlmamS4NRwbY=; b=ZxmcYlgvB3/K5qxf+EUVTIRtUCGJGqHmjnOOsyRL9/4HndZK6HpMZNxUxmAy+hwGTf7a9OOfdlwO+lA/jM3k8GipaionMuSUCo7FAo3+MZRDkOH7eM4QfjPortG8Qr+I87LuEgQ9ITlG8iHgXAW3HsUVuwni+Ybbq8pTqgtWPoI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FsxrDKyjUn55gxJ0bBtnbaRiA35lT41v+7RRCH+svevlAH2Gwru1gGy3xMe6qc/pZX8XtwgUsWsDGYRre3O7VPFHZ1MWTZPhLa+uqM/9Gi5GmfowKr3hjueHq4fnM4EIOyErfqJcJUsmaQ1BZa7/RFSxM/smMbFIesuKLF9gSmg= Original-Received: by 10.82.125.8 with SMTP id x8mr20613686buc.22.1206444325501; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.82.175.3 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ve3bzhyq.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93406 Archived-At: 2008/3/25, Bastien : > I don't follow this reasoning. More than that: I think _nobody_ really > does -- yes, even you, Paul :) > > Remember when you first learned Emacs? Did it behave like you would > expect a text editor to behave? At least for me the answer is no, it > behave in a radically new way. And today I am quite happy Emacs did not > behave like I would have expected it to behave, otherwise it would just > be yet-another-editor. I can remember precisely what I felt. And that is true I learned a lot from emacs defaults. But what I'm really concerned about is users giving up after a couple of weeks because their productivity dropped below the acceptable level. Those people will not learn *anything* from emacs, because they simply won't use emacs at all. To put matter into context, I'm from europe, I'm young as I just finished my studies. In my school, everybody had to use emacs because it was the editor installed by default. Today, less than 3% keep using it, and those people use it because I almost enforced them to do so, and because I put hundreds of lines in their .emacs. Emacs is full of very smart design decisions, and I wished any newbie would have enough courage to discover them all. Or at least I wished a lot would. But I think the learning path, today, passes through unacceptable points for most people trying emacs. So back to my previous question : --- "Should default settings have educational purpose ?" -> If yes, then, please, make sure the learning path remains walkable for most new comers. My opinion is that it isn't in its current state. -> If no, then, emacs default settings should be chosen to minimize the productivity drop encoutered when trying emacs. I do not want default emacs to become a bloated gedit as someone suggested. But I do not want the user base to lower in number so much that the future would be really uncertain. A compromise must be found, don't you think ?