From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Character folding in the pretest Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <56B1B3A1.2050605@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1454516742 31430 80.91.229.3 (3 Feb 2016 16:25:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:25:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , Emacs developers To: Filipp Gunbin , Yuri Khan Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 03 17:25:29 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aR0FE-00021s-HB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 17:25:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36080 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aR0FD-0002wt-Us for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:25:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48186) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aR0Ef-0002Io-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:24:55 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aR0Ec-0005Bx-Pi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:24:53 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:44779) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aR0Ec-0005Bs-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 11:24:50 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u13GOaFo019804 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:24:36 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u13GOZTS029373 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:24:35 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u13GOZZn014299; Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:24:35 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:199246 Archived-At: > > =D0=95 and =D0=81, on the other hand, are a holywar-inducing contention > > point. >=20 > They have their own places in the Russian alphabet. I think > char-folding should fold only "modified" letter variants into > "canonical" form (without any modifications). >=20 > =D0=95 and =D0=81 are just separate letters, although we don't use =D0=81= much... >=20 > Once I "fixed" all our text resources files at work and a colleague of > mine commented in review that =D0=81 is used only in childrens books. I = had > to revert the change. The point, IMO, is that there are multiple use cases, depending on the user and the context (including, but not limited to, language). What we really need are ways for _users_ to _easily_ express their preferences, including perhaps preferences for different contexts that they use, and including ways to express what they want on the fly - not just ahead of time via Customize (e.g. default preferences). That should be the _first_ order of business. If we do a good job of providing for that then anything additional we do concerning DWIM or default behaviors is icing on the cake. If we do not take care of the need to give users flexible control then anything we do (DWIM or defaults) will be misguided for at least some users and use cases. It typically hurts more than helps, IMO. This is a general point, not limited to char folding or search. Our priority should be to (1) yes, raise possible use cases for discussion, such as is being done now in this thread, and (2) come up with brilliant, easy-to-use ways to _give users control_. Users are different, and even the same user has multiple use cases - s?he does not want the same behavior all the time. It is not enough to look at the user's language setting etc. Only the user knows, at any given time, what s?he wants. It is fine to be smart about the defaults we set, but that's not the most important thing. Likewise wrt coming up with clever DWIM behavior. But the smartest DWIM is brain dead when compared with a live user. And even the best default behavior is no good for many use cases. Users need to be able to (easily) control the behavior. Thinking first about defaults or DWIM is wrong, IMO. We should think first about how users can change the behavior, including on the fly.