From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs for new users Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:28:18 +0100 Message-ID: References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <4p4rt6-2ne.ln1@lesharris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259009561 10447 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 20:52:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:52:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Les Harris Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 21:52:33 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCftd-0004TE-22 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:52:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47299 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCftc-0003Gf-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCfWe-0001Vh-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:44 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCfWZ-0001UG-Dk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=51170 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCfWZ-0001UD-8K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:39 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yx0-f191.google.com ([209.85.210.191]:47934) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCfWZ-0003dP-0w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:39 -0500 Original-Received: by yxe29 with SMTP id 29so15229824yxe.14 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=13psZSOY1LF96BLeFZBfvLWmtuy8ijnH+/e2YGji9Zg=; b=bbsIu8sn36vOX0itudQO8C2kQeLTwwlhoEJce6njcQbyMul5zYhnWnBVz9kboIJZ7s yOBm7IGiBDVWcefbE2PlHS1auuSPiQX4k6ZfyBsHxXEvvuL5jOWUHtlnu5TYZceXSou4 ck+NEP5OhydSPdED9GvYErvbNwI35F2kbtp1A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=baLamHr00vMBvMtkhNs2J2Ys64CytEMb698VAlolppdOrRi0V+QE4i6lhU3JRw/U7d 1SBnrxAqyXqh+uUhHuOPfpTW4RfkHaY3F6/su6z/KWccPWCR1Ku1VXKFQyMsLTPtYgCb KUlnnIeDAKiS/ZddRLSDKE0elxi10FHemHbNE= Original-Received: by 10.101.143.10 with SMTP id v10mr4098505ann.170.1259008118140; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4p4rt6-2ne.ln1@lesharris.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117617 Archived-At: On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Les Harris wrote: > Lennart Borgman writes: > >> It is quite strange to not include Emacs. On the other hand it points >> to how important it is too make it easy to start using Emacs. I think >> we should have to move to adhere better to existing GUI standards (CUA >> for example, but that is a hot potato). > > First let's get the tautologies out of the way: Emacs is a complex > system with many features and extreme extensibility. > > With that axiom in mind I would argue that any attempt to add a veneer > of simplicity over the top is doing a disservice to would-be emacs > users. > > With that said, I think a solution to the learning-emacs-in-classroom and > emacs-for-new-users problems is the same: include a .emacs which turns > on things like CUA mode to make operation more familiar. The problem is that it does not work as good as it could in all situations. Since CUA is not the default not so much effort in getting rid of all ruogh things. Not that you can't work around them, but it is not so easy for a newcomer. > The instructor of an emacs class is in an ideal position to do this. > For others this is something that could be easily distributed with emacs > perhaps with adding a blurb about it on the emacs splash screen. There has been much talk about this, but no real attempt to finish something for it. The best approach is possibly to use Emacs themes for this and distribute them. However I am not sure if themes are sufficiently modular for this. Can you use two themes at the same time for example?