From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: On obsoleting defcustoms Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 14:16:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: > <83lfh743j8.fsf@gnu.org>> <53945b2b-cb3f-4823-85e1-ff8676f10161@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22482"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 12 23:37:50 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kdLDy-0005jx-NN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:37:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42700 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdLDx-0004Nv-Nm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:37:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39904) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKt9-0000ry-Cb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:16:19 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:50832) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdKt6-0007GT-Sk; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:16:18 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0ACM04sD143275; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:16:14 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=wfhMX5he/Q1myGf3J/kg0K3v8/zlKsoecbh06dNQH7U=; b=IZ0shGsJpAQqYDLxzhMQEeV9js6Z4gize8WgX9M0WQnhl02ekexclrqdFOKBWB6KIg4v InQZ9GQQM9U05BmGymCyz3RJSB+E2VjUsO1Z2Qk1G/eUCLZ3At9sgVybSwhr8x98ilpa nulMrWYhj2VZk4AYcQDOfl1RkZhowa8RCYaHwGCwHBbKBopM8XloxkYdFQZobWyWUP0R uHRgVdtjSYp3gdiaKx//We+ebSm7s/Flt7pcdquSsffMu+Lgn+XWJgphpimURRiL75gL rJGYcXX9UIz8yWla+MNLwwF0l89WutEnQLZs1jNKNKiej1kIJeiZooHf7rwzNy4ISE53 OA== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 34nh3b85vp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:16:14 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0ACM1K7P178668; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:16:14 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 34p55ryrqa-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:16:14 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0ACMGDdG022957; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:16:13 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9803 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011120126 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9803 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011120126 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.79; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2130.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/12 17:09:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:259107 Archived-At: > > If people are concerned about someone continuing to use > > something that's obsolete, why not just have Customize give > > a warning/message saying that the option is obsolete >=20 > That's what we do now. See `M-x customize-group RET browse-url RET' I don't see any such warnings/messages there, until you open the full doc string of an option. If every option in the group is obsolete, and so is the group itself (which should presumably follow), then one might expect a notification at the top (i.e. customize-group) level. > in Emacs 27 for a bad case of what that might look like. What's bad about it? If all of those options still "work", a user should be able to make use of Customize to change their values. And if they don't work then there should be no supporting code, and they'd be unrecognized - raise an error if referenced in any way. Typically, deprecated/obsolete !=3D unsupported. Does Emacs take the point of view that all of this is unsupported? If so, remove its code, so using raises an error. > > That's assuming that Emacs takes the (unusual, IME) point of > > view that, once declared obsolete, something should no longer > > be usable. >=20 > It's still usable with the patch, just not advertised. Not advertising is fine. Telling users, including in the Customize UI, that something is obsolete is also fine. What's not fine, IMO, is to remove it from Customize. If something is removed from Customize then it's not the case that it's still usable with Customize (or Customize is still usable for it).