From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: < <83tw12cocz.fsf@gnu.org> <83wp5xat6i.fsf@gnu.org> <2d035e42-006b-e76e-2b3f-75f2dfd87bb7@taydin.org> <58ac4c14-3f26-4b21-806a-aa2326ce3d2b@default> <98f114b6-191e-43f9-b505-9362b9382508@default> <<83fucg99cj.fsf@gnu.org> <435fbbb8-6135-7cd9-d852-1da5f20f3f8f@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503599447 24005 195.159.176.226 (24 Aug 2017 18:30:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:30:47 +0000 (UTC) To: =?utf-8?B?Q2zDqW1lbnQgUGl0LUNsYXVkZWw=?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 24 20:30:37 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwtm-0005eJ-55 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 20:30:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49872 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwts-0004NR-Sp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:30:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39425) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwt3-0004M0-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:29:50 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwsy-0008OY-WF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:29:49 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:45110) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwsy-0008O0-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:29:44 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v7OITfGL014818 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:29:42 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7OITfUG031570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:29:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7OITflZ009604; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:29:41 GMT In-Reply-To: <435fbbb8-6135-7cd9-d852-1da5f20f3f8f@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6774.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217781 Archived-At: > > Deciding to "install" a package is somewhat analogous to putting > > a library in your `load-path'. That doesn't mean it gets loaded. > > Activating a package (`package-initialize') is somewhat analogous > > to loading a library. >=20 > Just the autoloads, though, right? Not like `load' or `require'. I'm not sure what you mean, or which part of what I wrote you are referring to. My point was that for the "old" system there are two actions or kinds of opt-in, before a library is "activated": (1) put the code in your `load-path' and (2) load it. Just putting a library in your `load-path' does not load it. If a library has autoloads, and if those are processed, and if the user then (at some point) triggers an autoloaded function etc., then the library is loaded. So there are actually 3 steps there. Does `package-initialize' only process autoloads and not also load a package? I guess so. And I guess that was your point/question. > > My reply to that was to point out that being part of the core does > > not imply activating. I said that "lots of things are a core part > > of Emacs and not extensions, but we don't necessarily turn them on > > eagerly and by default." >=20 > I'm confused. We load their autoloads from loaddefs.el, don't we? Does > package-initialize do more? Maybe not. It's a good point. So maybe `package-initialize' is more analogous to functions such as `update-directory-autoloads' and `update-file-autoloads'. That does modify much of what I've said. If "activating the package system" means just processing the autoloads for packages that have been "installed", so that it is like doing `update-directory-autoloads' in each part of `load-path', then I guess I don't have a problem with such automatic "activation". (There remains, apparently, the question of how/when/where Emacs or a user should invoke `package-initialize'.)