From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:26:41 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <01341bd6-b94b-4f94-1461-405e723142ad@yandex.ru> <8735qmjklm.fsf@localhost> <87ilzi86h7.fsf@posteo.net> <875yvh9anq.fsf@posteo.net> <83o899yjh2.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jxyhbn.fsf@gnu.org> <05217332-4d76-83a6-06a6-3ddae942dd12@yandex.ru> <83czppygiv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6588"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, lokedhs@gmail.com, yantar92@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 03 15:40:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mM9Qm-0001Z6-LR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 15:40:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57754 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM9Ql-0001Ev-EJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 09:40:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51160) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM9DW-0001Fd-IB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 09:26:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]:56068) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM9DR-0001Uh-VG; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 09:26:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id g135so3501437wme.5; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:26:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Utdupy2TbSwRIGr1iRYXMGHcAbnSStLHaDLsfbTfbxg=; b=ppP8LmDAOw6JSNn/VJsiP1L7eMi3bHT9rj7qODTiQCKK2ABxn94M67Ik6sTytgzoNA aF1H64fhjAXg2MehDJCAj4h5MtGWG7GU3h3WlIrjI2CTDQfmkfhq7aEDYYkuY6p43vyQ 5DxZeR8FGOimmkN5lK0sTQCJkzU9M01m3u7BOMN0FMeZMMkwUd5sQOqWUsDIoHrnrpV+ SqWA7LekMGV8wJfC2igM+815AkesvkhgmhMqQssPUKQVGp+MMBHHIMtXLTU3eivRI49V SRxAWVrBQzsX6XE06xKdld8ZZrdvXk39OWmPYS+YKHRvBmW6Byo1FJjUxG5EWqV6rz2r eZlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Utdupy2TbSwRIGr1iRYXMGHcAbnSStLHaDLsfbTfbxg=; b=MimoD71xnHQEpo+q8RAMurU7IUktWqTP4HOF1J5wpCR4tXGt137ZwCTcdl5rFmB9qp 7C8kfS+zUWyUP+AlOyRekDJmDiqu1v2H0KKROqrTdSIrjDd4zi3ep84FBGrfShPptIcB MbBXu1DPHge//hBBbuxLLQKZ/WjMFmbXEqfds1s54RKaYSumz5fOLSPy6QG1RjdxCF9r AqKoCNq0OAczVci3+p5SyR9qxRtFEX7mek6Pco2GIjJheYZZ1h4b/BaIblokPnPczxMv BNIMj3XqHbaN5XS7TuBuoDG2+aneYKUMIu/aGF7q7kzV4nJ9d8LX1gW42UL6/BF31Rc4 tS+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ci3yo+0QjM9eZfTXoO40MvjOlzoA6wYhi3BkUDlriKCqX4oKx Yd1J4rafuC4PT3tDuJU+3I4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzASHvq7uG1jKmMuzt1Vx9X1Itmu9kYy7iYJX8y+7zL3R7CGyaftsDOowz3fglKT2S8RUowtQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:3109:: with SMTP id x9mr422063wmx.194.1630675603837; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o5sm4648990wrw.17.2021.09.03.06.26.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83czppygiv.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32b; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.888, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_XBL=0.375, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273794 Archived-At: On 03.09.2021 15:45, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> The problem with variables with indent-tabs-mode and >> require-final-newline is they affect Emacs's behavior in ways that >> aren't apparent to a new user, or to a beginner programmer. And then >> they can cause problems for the teammates who aren't even using Emacs. >> >> Having a profile unassumingly called "Dmitry Gutov's Preferences" (who >> would want to enable THAT, right?), which would need to be enabled to >> avoid these issues, is a usability problem. > I'd start by collecting the relevant settings. E.g., if those 4 are > the only ones, or close to that, then perhaps a single profile named > "convenience" or somesuch would be enough. But I suspect there are > many more, so we'd need to divide them into groups, and then name each > group accordingly. A private email reminded me of a certain suggestion that has been made in this area. And here is a possible twist on the proposal: What if we do introduce the "profiles" feature, *and* we change our practice to alter the defaults more easily as well? Including radical, mutinous ones, like indent-tabs-mode -> nil. Not all of them, of course, but with more of an eye toward being useful for new users (violent discussions about the default values will continue, but will sometimes results in changes, too). And to avoid the problems with Emacs's default moving forward, we introduce a profile called "Good Old Days" which the folks who prefer things to generally stay the same, would enable, just once. Going forward, every time we change some default, we would consider adding the previous value to that profile. Or even do that automatically.