From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 23:30:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389079867 1008 80.91.229.3 (7 Jan 2014 07:31:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 07:31:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, toby-dated-1389972095.0848dd@dr-qubit.org, Lennart Borgman , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 07 08:31:12 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0R7z-0003AY-88 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 08:31:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39179 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0R7y-0003uD-M8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:31:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54861) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0R7n-0003sO-Mb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:31:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0R7f-0000iF-3S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:30:55 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:34092) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0R7e-0000i8-Ro; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:30:47 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s077UVNv028517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 07:30:31 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s077USEI012270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Jan 2014 07:30:28 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s077US35012264; Tue, 7 Jan 2014 07:30:28 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167576 Archived-At: > > This said, the "what you call a window is called a frame" > > is not nearly as problematic as "what we call window is > > not what you think", so maybe renaming "window" to "pane" > > would get us most of the benefit. >=20 > I think you're right there. If we just get rid of the word > "window", I think that'll fix most confusions. =20 What confusion? Is there really a problem? Are you sure? I've been dealing with newbie Emacs questions and confusion for as long as most of you, and I don't think I have ever encountered a user who had difficulting understanding what we mean, once the terms are presented. IOW, any contact at all with either the Emacs docs or a quick Q & A has always answered any user questions I've come across in this regard. I have never, ever, encountered any "confusion" here. There is sometimes confusion elsewhere (menu structure, keymaps, font-lock-keywords...), but no confusion about windows and frames, once the terms are explained. No confusion, just initial ignorance, which is not the same thing and which is easily remedied. Seriously, have any of you encounted a user who could not understand what an Emacs window and frame are? Ever? Really? It's a faux probleme. It says more about you who see it as a problem than it does about any potential Emacs newbies. And you ain't gonna get no mileage out of making a big attempt to clothe Emacs in terminology the Emacs-ignorant will immediately recognize. There really is a wolf under those sheepskins - Emacs is a different beast. Everything worth its salt has its own jargon. Including Emacs. Gratuitous differences in terminology for identical things are something else. But (a) that is rare (the Emacs thingies are not really the same), and (b) even then it is not important to toe the line. Especially if the things are identical, it is easy to learn new terms for them. Examples of exceptional things that are identical in Emacs, or nearly so, are "cut" and "paste" operations. And as others have already said, it is enough to point out the Emacs terminology and the correspondences (when there are close correspondences and not just faux amis) - which we already do, AFAIK. If you think that initiation into the ways and jargon of Emacs is just too darn hard for today's kiddies, I'd say you're not only pandering (demagogy), you're selling the kiddies short. Have confidence. You learned Emacs, and no, you ain't no smarter or tougher than they are. (Now if we just get rid of Emacs, I think that would take care of most confusion...)