From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:28:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834msoqrsg.fsf@gnu.org> <87k31ki3tc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83zjafpu3b.fsf@gnu.org> <87d27b5hu0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83a92fow6r.fsf@gnu.org> <21656.62195.233339.678762@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <5a15d51d-e061-4b28-a06e-69e39058b8fa@default> <21657.35538.656125.769730@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419355756 20825 80.91.229.3 (23 Dec 2014 17:29:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:29:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , lennart.borgman@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 23 18:29:10 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3TGf-0000tt-J1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:29:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45662 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3TGe-0000aQ-R4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:29:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55279) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3TGK-0000a0-E7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:28:55 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3TGC-0005bt-Oy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:28:48 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:45873) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3TG4-0005bC-Rt; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:28:32 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sBNHSPVQ022892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:28:26 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBNHSONG020372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:28:24 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBNHSNoF026123; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:28:23 GMT In-Reply-To: <21657.35538.656125.769730@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180585 Archived-At: > > > > she wants to read about "cut and paste". >=20 > > > You mean 12.3 =E2=80=9CCut and Paste=E2=80=9D Operations on Graphica= l Displays > > > right? I agree that the *user* wants to be there, but I'm not > > > sure *we* want her to be there. In particular, on "i cut" I=20 > > > would be very tempted to land her in the parent, "Killing and > > > Moving Text". > > > > Irrelevant to this discussion. >=20 > Look who's talking! Sigh. ad hominem (again). Please point to one thing I've said here that is irrelevant to this discussion - but off list, as that too is irrelevant here. Stick to arguments about the topic. The topic is not me or you. > But no, this *is* relevant to this discussion. The point (which > was made explicitly) is that Eli and I disgree on "the right" node > for the index; No, that is not the point. If you think a different node is more appropriate, file a bug report. Eli is not right all the time. ;-) But what is this about "the right node" for "cut"? Do you think there is or should be only one? Most manually defined indexes allow for multiple targets for the same index entry, although it is usually helpful to qualify them using secondary entries. Simply "cut" as input and index entry could point to several places in the Emacs manual. Preferably they would be qualified, to help you decide which is closer to what you are looking for. And lo and behold, so there are. Already. There are several such related "cut" index entries: cut - "Cut and Paste" Operations on Graphical Display cut and paste - Glossary cutting text - Deletion and Killing X cutting and pasting - Cut and Paste with Other Window Applications (The last one does not appear for vanilla Emacs `i cut' completion, but it does for Icicles and probably other completion enhancers.) Those designing indexes make judgment calls, yes. And you might disagree with any given judgment, yes. Likewise, search-engine scoring. > in such cases Google style "implicit" indexing based on user > behavior which provides a variety of choices may be more useful > than Info-style indexing based on focused choices by knowledgeable > editors. No one denies that full-text search indexing can be useful. And manually designed indexes provide "a variety of choices" as well. In this particular case, googling - just entering "emacs cut" - returns this as the only hit for the Emacs manual: `"Cut and Paste" Operations on Graphical Display'. (The same hit that you ended up at by `i cut RET'.) That is the only hit for the Emacs manual among the first 20 pages (200 hits), at least. However, to be fair, if you google "emacs manual cut" then you do get much better results. There are 5 hits among the first 10 that target www.gnu.org for the manual, one of which is the "Cut and Paste" node. And yes, there are 2 hits among the first 10 that target your prefered node (but not at gnu.org). Anyway, the point is not that googling cannot help you find information about Emacs - including information that is in the manual. The point is that we need not (and should not) choose only one or the other. You have both available, right now. And if you find that for some information in the manual `i' doesn't cut the mustard and googling does a better job, then please do file a bug report.