From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: How to opt out of curly-quote spamming altogether? Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <> <<834mjoha4r.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1440439107 20531 80.91.229.3 (24 Aug 2015 17:58:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:58:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 24 19:58:14 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTw0a-0007iE-Mi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:58:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55896 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTw0a-0007pW-5W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:58:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48341) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTw0N-0007pF-Hk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:58:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTw0M-0000Dh-Bb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26780) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTw0H-0000Bg-Jw; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:57:53 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t7OHvpuX026096 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:57:52 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7OHvp5u016356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:57:51 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7OHvoBs024305; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:57:50 GMT In-Reply-To: <<834mjoha4r.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189117 Archived-At: > > This is not about "displaying one character as another." It is > > about choosing how to present inline code fragments. >=20 > But an Info manual uses the quotes not only in code fragments, it > uses them, for example, when defining new terminology and when > describing keyboard input. Yes, and none of those uses have anything to do with the use of a curly quote to represent _itself_. They are all cases of what I have been calling "setting off inline code". In other doc systems they would have an underlying markup (e.g., XML element) that distinguishes them, structurally, from ordinary text. And typically they would not just all use the same markup/element: code would use, say, , new terminology would use, say, , and so on. But whether they all are represented structurally/semantically the same way or not, they perform the task of setting off their contents semantically. They cannot be confused with ordinary text. And then there is how these semantic critters are presented finally. Typically, presentation is a separate layer or process, and the same structure/content can be, by choice, presented in different ways (for different media, among other things). Inline code is typically presented using a fixed-width font, such as Courier, as opposed to ordinary text, which is typically presented using a proportional font. Glossary terms might be presented using bold or colored text, perhaps linked to a glossary entry. And so on. Anyone used to LaTeX or Tex is used to this separation, for example. I'm surprised if Texinfo/makeinfo does not provide for it - if an inline code snippet or key binding necessarily ends up with a presentation that is identical to ordinary text quoting (curly quotes, whether single or double). =20 > > It is not about substituting for literal curly quotes everwhere, > > as I made clear. >=20 > I'm sorry, but nothing is clear about what you described. Maybe you're not trying to understand? > I should probably stop replying, as my attempt at helping you is > quickly slipping into another annoying discussion, where you hold me > responsible for some crime I didn't commit. There's no crime, only a regression for users. I cannot say who or what is responsible, nor does it matter what I think about that. It may be tools (e.g. Texinfo) that are responsible. It may be changes implemented recently - or both. For users, things have gone downhill, IMHO. What was a pretty clear separation of code (and keys and URLs etc.) from the surrounding text has been lost. Some people don't like the retro look of `...', but that's not really the point. I would be happy if some other, straightforward, easy-to-use means were adopted for setting off such thingies from the surrounding text. But note that Emacs doc is not used _only_ the way other doc is used. There is a lot more search etc. going on, which means that if Emacs were to, for example, set inline code off using a fixed-width font then we would need an easy way to search for such bits, search within such bits, and search outside of such bits. That's doable, but not done so far. Instead, we've got only curly quotation to set things off, and that is a very poor substitute for `...' (for Emacs) or for a fixed-width font (for other docs). > > > It's the question of which version of Texinfo was used for > > > producing the docs. The defaults in Texinfo changed recently, > > > independently of Emacs development. > > > > Defaults? So Emacs has a choice? >=20 > _Texinfo_ defaults. Not _Emacs_ defaults. If they are Texinfo _defaults_ then doesn't that mean that Texinfo also provides other choices? If not then how are they just defaults?