From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 03:46:57 +0300 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <55fd40f2-0468-d724-425d-c28c9d17b301@online.de> <779cc2b0-c546-2a80-afd3-79f10bda1b7e@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="120705"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Emacs Devel , =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBSw4PCtmhsZXI=?= , Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman To: excalamus@tutanota.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 15 02:48:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZOW8-000VIc-GU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 15 May 2020 02:48:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40804 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZOW7-000517-Do for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 20:47:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47158) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZOVE-0004Zw-E7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 20:47:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::332]:36298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZOVC-0006oT-L5; Thu, 14 May 2020 20:47:03 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id u188so566225wmu.1; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:47:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5YSP5ami60tmOICKVgYrqHW5shdxeC8V/8fFgwoDTU0=; b=FDnBZFo9ocO+kloqdgyy7aASuffiB5/bG9+BKibz+req0Mg3uVEjzLgr82rsZQW+Xd tOg4MvXm+4paP/vkMLhxpzmjQsA62AkpeMlHpOJIXmOdQCU/Vb2Fp5Z0AT27h+Qedh4h o+Qz0sAFiRei6MAKehInFoajV70ZcoxANLQ2s9fvoKU0GgVQH08kRJ65IRXEybweLelr V21EnortJKUm4VT2d/ESB1+cGEuimPHDbD2z6/K1vvcOeuKv7xa9PJ+0x/yRcDct24B1 KMabVJOWCFrcyQuTnqpbXV/bSYN2R5p13Po0yri2jW53vRf1wc6MXJusWrxCx1QACTNO 1FRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5YSP5ami60tmOICKVgYrqHW5shdxeC8V/8fFgwoDTU0=; b=Eqc2G705fcONjgHQjZcDDyRKZ73L6M/5QWggvCXvm+qRcJL7nV7apcjVVWam9bPZkh K+6GFM6vlQWrXaoX+inDV+Kitjok6ovVJVKbNBBNWxhqA/TBT2ctx/0REodRMIxK3dE9 xeXK7YAV6j9IazfXzpXQyFbeJHhhosagNnHBTrLn5nq2OhplPm2uRK7Z8/ltqdKvmtsN GW3E5J5xWHq3BeJsG5EfrgOD75vI9WtN6tYlE1fSHDdPbaGWUQ4hr94Mw/yRDZZJMlZE 4D2c8ZMlBuoxlOy/PwTNdRWHbvTlolL/Fly6ljqt2GMaOYHutYOUoSUp8OIWcce7xaw5 9Rqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532onS1UTw8k/gO6ZWLaa2FZ/Iu4rKcmavplIg99TVvheMoShh0l JnAsCriceO384ixNhNKctInl3vW6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzLLDhWoOZTxJrjV+4BW9t45vI2BujY9OotA3KXamnRWdghR1NQoHknWPppItnifZRv8OBMig== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f609:: with SMTP id w9mr992863wmc.123.1589503619985; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 81sm1244548wme.16.2020.05.14.17.46.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 May 2020 17:46:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::332; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x332.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250306 Archived-At: On 15.05.2020 00:31, excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions. wrote: > > May 14, 2020, 08:04 by dgutov@yandex.ru: > > On 14.05.2020 05:18, excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions. > wrote: > > How's this for a start? > > > I like it. > > I'd retouch a few phrases, but overall seems like a solid improvement. > > Please share! OK. See below. > I wrote this: > > 1. to volunteer for the task, if people agree it needs doing > 2. to demonstrate how we can reassess our raison d'etre and scaffold > newcomers by presenting it to them explicitly > > If this draft, or a revision of it, gets the thumbs up, I will need > assistance in submitting it officially. We could make a new topic for it then. But the maintainer reads these threads, too. On your proposed text: built from the idea that each key calls a tiny program (or macro) Keys don't call macros anymore (all commands must be functions, not macros). Seems like the meaning of the word "macro" has changed over the years. GNU Emacs is the GNU project's incarnation of the Emacs idea. ...I'm not 100% sure what the idea is. Keys having bindings? I'll admit I might have missed that in the original text. The documentation even reaches down to the source code itself! What does this mean? Functions having docstrings? Which they do everywhere. We love GNU Emacs because we feel that no other editing environment rewards sustained user investment quite like it. Personally, I don't love this sentiment. It implies that one must invest a lot of time to get something good out of it. I'd rather emphasize power, flexibility and interactivity rather than paint a picture of the user polishing his Emacs for decades. Which we do, but, well, a lot of professionals in different industries do this too with their industry-specific tools.