From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 04:32:50 +0300 Message-ID: References: <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf4dyhel.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14923"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, john@yates-sheets.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 04 03:33:34 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMKYn-0003lb-PQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:33:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60086 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMKYm-0000pr-Al for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:33:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMKYD-00008i-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:32:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]:34758) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMKYB-00004v-L8; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:32:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id m9so1047718wrb.1; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 18:32:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rnPTOR3oRt+2tyfR+/XvwRsLDDRKS2hbu5523K8FHyE=; b=Iyl+OU4GTDHL/z59Y8yWuX6C1IwpgnvsThj3UW72BdFw4Fk1xEbHnNphaJzs9vgCd+ y3nk4PlkoaePFYHyoLfE6LAOaQC4XMlQZkYvIh732YzIyceXAnNqpsykXtuYrOJBoDrT tYk+xU5YbdbL2+gDSy8/0BkOltK13nTNcMBgBFQ8wW7D8+HWODQrYVylN8Ur132sUQnN 02ddOHWqlO5CRysxLt5VmZtuak8+xoveVJ5cDyudoJ/6uZ5HYHH/kIojx7rxT11pcII/ FQvbJZa3HdzRTUWu++/FPBJPVBjUn47Vi1trZ66Di+vrN9crU02VcaAl3WJrPH+nauAV 7aZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rnPTOR3oRt+2tyfR+/XvwRsLDDRKS2hbu5523K8FHyE=; b=mDNl/1Zht7coXgxQz1w2AqTrLoKp471kcZrQJauhxIPUEquPJaw+FtiCk6jQ1WurDx SVSpbhgFNGrK0VfF/0yToDhlsNjw3SqTpu8N9S/fkGniNYCe6MEKkQluVO2hNT2BtN3q cWYL6km1YHo4Fiv4dXNK1F6UVANpceQrg+Jwk2RMHmTLKVKLHTzlKAPHFF2hptcyAFho BR1FOXJtwf2Me/DUzIpmnobLuJyUpXCd0QlObQO6RTcwyXHnJfEX+e5TpAASODLhPSYz i3qE94BTUT6zgyEfxqqQJIbRTMmGIR/FJlFUmYAh6fAIzZmlnArSIPueeOBfe+CWyGDQ 7HtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306t0cRc0nPupVXm28P9B+3qNJnTNXl+OVsjjbchbhlVopONo6C DBbxmqf39jhG6w5sd/+XnBv8cLYyVPg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxG+anAtLBT00j2WK0gZaQWcjzCfH/1DWE7afHZ6IDnJbEf5/7CBY4LexPMMngByQrrb1AbAQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:424c:: with SMTP id s12mr1683832wrr.8.1630719173251; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 18:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k16sm755888wrx.87.2021.09.03.18.32.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 18:32:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83lf4dyhel.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42c; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -23 X-Spam_score: -2.4 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.888, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273826 Archived-At: On 03.09.2021 15:26, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We are, I hope, interested mainly in making Emacs evolve and adapt to > the changing times and preferences. I consider the way of introducing > changes as optional first to be a better way towards that goal, > including the goal to change the defaults. And I explained in so many > words why and how. How is that side-stepping the issue at hand? The goals of having Emacs "evolve and adapt" and having it stay the same are inherently at odds. > Show me a project where things are different, where the lead > developers cannot say "I don't like" (with arguments, which you forget > to mention, or prefer to dismiss or disregard, but they are still > there), and that's it. This is how Free Software projects are being > developed, at least IME. Emacs is not an outlier, it's right there in > the mainstream. You might as well have said "show me a project where the leaders don't make decisions". So what? We can still question the logic in said decisions. >>> IME, at least on >>> my daytime job, source code produced by people these days with popular >>> IDEs (not Emacs) includes TABs. >> >> Does it include tabs in the same fashion as what is produced by Emacs? >> Which actually mixes tabs and spaces. > > Why does it matter? If we'd make the default use only TABs, would you > agree then? You would not be able to -- it would be just as breaking, and it would require even more changes, including various major modes. Like synchronizing tab-width and the *-indent-level variables. But it would make more sense, at least. It does matter if you are at all interested in the current popular practices around tabs vs spaces (meaning being interested in what people ultimately want: Emacs users generally don't get to choose the current project style at the workplace). When we look at the polls about indentation style preference (where "tabs" can be as high as ~30% for certain languages), they don't prefer the kind of tab-based indentation that Emacs does. Which really means we only satisfy some tiny fraction of the users OOTB in any language.