(unknown)

(unknown)

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

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Hi developers.

I translated GNU Emacs manual "The Emacs Edirot" from English to Japanese.

  Emacs-24.5: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-24.5-emacs
  Emacs-25.1: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-25.1-emacs

So, how should I take next action.
Submit it to somewhere, or else?
(Currently I am sharing it by GitHub.)

Any ideas?

Thanks.

---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

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Re: none

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "TA" == Takesi Ayanokoji <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com> writes:

TA> I translated GNU Emacs manual "The Emacs Edirot" from English to Japanese.

TA> So, how should I take next action. Submit it to somewhere, or else?
TA> (Currently I am sharing it by GitHub.)

This is a great contribution, Takesi, thank you! I'm not sure where other
languages go in our repository, since I don't see any others.

The only difficulty I can see will be maintaining this document to include
future changes, since few of us speak Japanese.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Paul Eggert]

On 09/28/2016 10:05 AM, John Wiegley wrote:
> I'm not sure where other
> languages go in our repository, since I don't see any others.

This is the first complete translation of a manual that I know of. Until 
now, we've had only tutorials (e.g., etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.ja) and a 
few reference cards (e.g., etc/refcards/sk-refcard.tex).

We could copy this contribution into doc/emacs-ja and distribute it as a 
standard part of GNU Emacs. Although you're right that it will probably 
trail behind the English-language version, that's much better than not 
having it at all. Perhaps a note could be put into the front, in 
Japanese, explaining this.

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Michael Albinus]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> This is the first complete translation of a manual that I know
> of. Until now, we've had only tutorials (e.g.,
> etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.ja) and a few reference cards (e.g.,
> etc/refcards/sk-refcard.tex).

Years ago, there was a Japanese version of the Tramp manual. It was
released with Tramp 2.0 and 2.1.

I had to remove it in Tramp 2.2, because there were no updates.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:28:00 -0700
> 
> We could copy this contribution into doc/emacs-ja and distribute it as a 
> standard part of GNU Emacs.

That'd need to figure out where to install it by "make install".  Are
there any GNU conventions for that?

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Paul Eggert]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> That'd need to figure out where to install it by "make install".  Are
> there any GNU conventions for that?

Not as far as I know. We could install it as 'emacs-ja', I suppose.

After more looking I found a cache of Japanese translations of GNU manuals, here:

http://www.ring.gr.jp/pub/doc/gnu-info-j/index.html.en

They look like they haven't been maintained since they were created many years 
ago, and it's reasonable to worry that this might happen to the Emacs manual. We 
could install a Japanese translation that's marked as being for a recent 
version. If it isn't maintained we could eventually remove it.

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

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Hi!

> The only difficulty I can see will be maintaining this document to include
> future changes, since few of us speak Japanese.

I didn't translate texi manual directory.

Instead, I extracted translatable string from emacs-24.5's texi to PO
files by using po4a utility, and then translate these PO file.
After translation, I generate translated emacs-24.5's texi files from
original texis and translated PO file by using po4a utility again.

Up to that, this was a heavy work for me because I translated over 600
pages manual from nearly scratch.
But after then, emacs-25.1 was released, updating translated manual was
easy.

I extracted translatable string from emacs-25.1's texi to PO  files by
using po4a utility, and then translate these PO file from emacs-24.5's
translated PO files by using gettext's merge utility.

At this point, this merged emacs-25.1's PO files ware almost Japanese but a
few part that made changes in this release remain English.

I translated untranslated part of PO files, and then generate Japanese
manual in fact.

But if I did not translate these PO manually, this cause emacs-25.1 manual
almost Japanese a few English.

This not means that the manual is outdated, it means up-to-date but not
completely translated.

So, if distribution includes translated PO files instead of translated texi
files, and if  any process(make's installation or maintainer's hand)
generaate translated manual from these PO files, maintain cost caused by
future changes will be reduced, I think.

1) gettext and po4a are used by GNUnited Nations that handles GNU's
websites internationalization.
See https://www.gnu.org/software/trans-coord/manual/gnun/gnun.html#Concepts

2) I maintain translated PO files by GitHub.
See https://github.com/ayatakesi/emacs-25.1-doc-emacs

Thanks.
---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

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Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Takesi Ayanokoji <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 15:59:49 +0900
> 
> Instead, I extracted translatable string from emacs-24.5's texi to PO files by using po4a utility, and then
> translate these PO file.
> After translation, I generate translated emacs-24.5's texi files from original texis and translated PO file by using
> po4a utility again.
> 
> Up to that, this was a heavy work for me because I translated over 600 pages manual from nearly scratch.
> But after then, emacs-25.1 was released, updating translated manual was easy.
> 
> I extracted translatable string from emacs-25.1's texi to PO files by using po4a utility, and then translate these
> PO file from emacs-24.5's translated PO files by using gettext's merge utility.
> 
> At this point, this merged emacs-25.1's PO files ware almost Japanese but a few part that made changes in
> this release remain English.
> 
> I translated untranslated part of PO files, and then generate Japanese manual in fact.
> 
> But if I did not translate these PO manually, this cause emacs-25.1 manual almost Japanese a few English.
> 
> This not means that the manual is outdated, it means up-to-date but not completely translated.

AFAIU, the technique you used makes every paragraph of the manual a PO
string, and then translates each such string.  This, of course, avoids
translating the same text again for the next version, but it will
leave any changed paragraphs in their English form.  With time, more
and more of the manual will become English if the translation is not
updated, so the danger of becoming outdated still exists, sort of.

Thanks.

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

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Of course I want to continue translation work in Emacs's future release ;-)

Regards.
---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

2016/09/30 午前0:10 "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>:

> > From: Takesi Ayanokoji <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 15:59:49 +0900
> >
> > Instead, I extracted translatable string from emacs-24.5's texi to PO
> files by using po4a utility, and then
> > translate these PO file.
> > After translation, I generate translated emacs-24.5's texi files from
> original texis and translated PO file by using
> > po4a utility again.
> >
> > Up to that, this was a heavy work for me because I translated over 600
> pages manual from nearly scratch.
> > But after then, emacs-25.1 was released, updating translated manual was
> easy.
> >
> > I extracted translatable string from emacs-25.1's texi to PO files by
> using po4a utility, and then translate these
> > PO file from emacs-24.5's translated PO files by using gettext's merge
> utility.
> >
> > At this point, this merged emacs-25.1's PO files ware almost Japanese
> but a few part that made changes in
> > this release remain English.
> >
> > I translated untranslated part of PO files, and then generate Japanese
> manual in fact.
> >
> > But if I did not translate these PO manually, this cause emacs-25.1
> manual almost Japanese a few English.
> >
> > This not means that the manual is outdated, it means up-to-date but not
> completely translated.
>
> AFAIU, the technique you used makes every paragraph of the manual a PO
> string, and then translates each such string.  This, of course, avoids
> translating the same text again for the next version, but it will
> leave any changed paragraphs in their English form.  With time, more
> and more of the manual will become English if the translation is not
> updated, so the danger of becoming outdated still exists, sort of.
>
> Thanks.
>

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Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

>> We could copy this contribution into doc/emacs-ja and distribute it as a
>> standard part of GNU Emacs.
>
> That'd need to figure out where to install it by "make install".  Are
> there any GNU conventions for that?
I checked internationalized info document, and I can't find any conventions
such like a internationalized man-pages.

Example of localized info I only found is TexLive's latex2e.info files
(latex2e.info and latex2e-es.info).

These info files are installed to
'/usr/local/texlive/2015/texmf-dist/doc/info/'
and that is not standard info directory.

If follow this example, japanese localized info name will be emacs-ja.info
and it will be installed Emacs data-directory's subdirectory(i.e. info/)
like Emacs TUTORIALs.

Regards.
---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 21:26:23 +0900, Takesi Ayanokoji wrote:
> I translated GNU Emacs manual "The Emacs Edirot" from English to Japanese.

>   Emacs-24.5: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-24.5-emacs
>   Emacs-25.1: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-25.1-emacs

What great works!  I also have been working on the Japanese
translation of the Gnus manual[1] for years.  You are welcome to
incorporate it in your works if you wish.  For the traditional
reason it contains the manuals for auth, epa, sasl, and sieve,
that are not parts of Gnus, as well.

[1] http://www.jpl.org/gnus-doc-ja.html
    https://github.com/jpl-org/gnus-doc-ja.git
   (or github.com:jpl-org/gnus-doc-ja.git)

Regards,

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

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Hi Yamaoka-san.

I read your translation.
And I think it is really great job.

But I can't imagin how to incorporate our jobs.
So, do you have any ideas to "incorporate" our jobs?

Regards.
---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

2016/09/29 午後4:19 "Katsumi Yamaoka" <yamaoka@jpl.org>:
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 21:26:23 +0900, Takesi Ayanokoji wrote:
> > I translated GNU Emacs manual "The Emacs Edirot" from English to
Japanese.
>
> >   Emacs-24.5: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-24.5-emacs
> >   Emacs-25.1: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-25.1-emacs
>
> What great works!  I also have been working on the Japanese
> translation of the Gnus manual[1] for years.  You are welcome to
> incorporate it in your works if you wish.  For the traditional
> reason it contains the manuals for auth, epa, sasl, and sieve,
> that are not parts of Gnus, as well.
>
> [1] http://www.jpl.org/gnus-doc-ja.html
>     https://github.com/jpl-org/gnus-doc-ja.git
>    (or github.com:jpl-org/gnus-doc-ja.git)
>
> Regards,

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Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 12:27:56 +0900, Takesi Ayanokoji wrote:
> Hi Yamaoka-san.

> I read your translation.
> And I think it is really great job.

> But I can't imagin how to incorporate our jobs.
> So, do you have any ideas to "incorporate" our jobs?

Oops, sorry.  Please ignore it.  You aren't going to work on
whole emacs manuals, are you? ;-)  Anyway, thanks again for the
great works.

>>>   Emacs-24.5: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-24.5-emacs
>>>   Emacs-25.1: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-25.1-emacs

;; Well, there used to be the Japanese translation of the ELisp
;; manual.  IIRC, that was corresponding to that of Emacs 20.
;; All Japanese Emacs players would greatly appreciate if...

Re: translation of Emacs manual into Japanese

[Takesi Ayanokoji]

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> You aren't going to work on
> whole emacs manuals, are you? ;-)
Certainly, that's right.

> ;; Well, there used to be the Japanese translation of the ELisp
> ;; manual.  IIRC, that was corresponding to that of Emacs 20.
> ;; All Japanese Emacs players would greatly appreciate if...
Yes, that's right.
I started to translate elisp manual, but it has just started.
This is not easy work because I am elisp beginner.
https://ayatakesi.github.io/emacs/24.5/elisp.html#Simple-Types

Regards.
---
Ayanokoji Takesi <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com>

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Re: (unknown)

[Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희, 黃炳熙)]

Takesi Ayanokoji <ayanokoji.takesi@gmail.com> 께서 쓰시길,
 《記事 全文
 <CAN7WbibOXQGSCYbzErB9e9X3YinM3OmBinApAM15hecx4O7-PA@mail.gmail.com>
 에서》:

> Hi developers.
>
> I translated GNU Emacs manual "The Emacs Edirot" from English to Japanese.
>
>   Emacs-24.5: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-24.5-emacs
>   Emacs-25.1: https://ayatakesi.github.io/#emacs-25.1-emacs
>
> So, how should I take next action.
> Submit it to somewhere, or else?
> (Currently I am sharing it by GitHub.)
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.

Takesi-san, it is very hard work, i think. You are strong man. Anyway
thanks thanks thanks!!!

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//