From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: contributing to Emacs Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 19:17:34 +0300 Message-ID: References: <83v8fnslfz.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8fnh1h2.fsf@web.de> <83mt0zs9rc.fsf@gnu.org> <0a968a4e1b267c0f15dd237e6ea12a709fc06d5e.camel@yandex.ru> <838rcisj7o.fsf@gnu.org> <6537fa5fa5c1fe8437ed99ee0988e35895f5a54b.camel@yandex.ru> <8423a35750d8d8e0437c7708f6b4d0bbdfdb7fe0.camel@yandex.ru> <87o7ldf7ky.fsf@web.de> <8cc19084ab18d0adb0f2cee4af14aa1b1d914a83.camel@yandex.ru> <87352p9izj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87pm5mvfgi.fsf@melete.silentflame.com> <83v8fe1wcm.fsf@gnu.org> <87edm1uxze.fsf@melete.silentflame.com> <83ttuxz4ne.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs6gzzqc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40346"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.3 Cc: spwhitton@spwhitton.name, luangruo@yahoo.com, arne_bab@web.de, ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 24 18:18:40 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qD5yB-000AHi-RA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 18:18:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qD5xK-0008RB-RF; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:17:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qD5xI-0008Qx-RN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:17:45 -0400 Original-Received: from forward502c.mail.yandex.net ([178.154.239.210]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qD5xF-00032A-4r; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:17:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-91.sas.yp-c.yandex.net (mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-91.sas.yp-c.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c14:2991:0:640:bb47:0]) by forward502c.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 596255EB93; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 19:17:35 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: by mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-91.sas.yp-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id YHLnC6fDeCg0-FQ5CCEIC; Sat, 24 Jun 2023 19:17:35 +0300 X-Yandex-Fwd: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1687623455; bh=P+dKIOwXfrFcZK7M2j0WKnpkg6uE8Hq2CuOt1fMwulI=; h=References:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID; b=VUQr9yU0a5XMnq+K1FIOFIRkvvV513FSr9RrtCxY1KAHjlyrTF82LlFaBiQhVtVJs Xkbvtwd4lEyL5/VVkffljbuckxA+zHasHRqofQVdWjV7kwV7I9Jnezd0efz2YtE19X f+m7MU3AR8gn0sZzHclBioBKhTn6VWedfg2K6GXA= Authentication-Results: mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-91.sas.yp-c.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru In-Reply-To: <83fs6gzzqc.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.154.239.210; envelope-from=hi-angel@yandex.ru; helo=forward502c.mail.yandex.net X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:307185 Archived-At: On Sat, 2023-06-24 at 17:44 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Konstantin Kharlamov > > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, arne_bab@web.de, ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.o= rg > > Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 15:36:20 +0300 > >=20 > > On Sat, 2023-06-24 at 10:43 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >=20 > > > What most people do instead is they provide a series where each patch > > > is a step towards the solution.=C2=A0 First, a patch with some refact= oring, > > > then another patch with the first aspect of the solution, another > > > patch with the second aspect, etc.=C2=A0 Such series make no sense as= a > > > series, because the patches are not really independent; instead, they > > > are _incremental_.=C2=A0 For example, it usually makes no sense to do= the > > > refactoring if we aren't installing the changes which need it. > >=20 > > I might be misunderstanding something, but as someone who regularly pos= ts > > such > > "incremental changes" at my work, I tend to disagree that such refactor= ing > > will > > not be needed if the final change not applied. >=20 > You might disagree, but such considerations and decisions are the > prerogative of the project maintainers, not of the contributors.=C2=A0 In > Emacs, we don't like code churn unless it has a purpose, and > refactoring by itself doesn't justify the downsides of making the code > less familiar to those who read and audit it very frequently, and need > to be able to find the relevant parts as fast as possible.=C2=A0 Keep in > mind that this is an old project with code written by excellent > programmers (I exclude myself from that group, obviously), and the > code is generally in very good shape.=C2=A0 Thus, refactoring is not real= ly > an urgent need, like it might be in an average project out there. >=20 > Again, you might disagree, but this is not your call.=C2=A0 My point was > precisely that since it is not the call of the contributors, they > cannot be expected to make those decisions on our behalf, and are > therefore better off not dividing the patches into several individual > ones. >=20 > > > Moreover, this technique frequently leads to multiple patches touchin= g > > > the same places several times, so when you review the first patch, yo= u > > > are looking at code that will be modified later, and risk providing > > > comments that are irrelevant, because a later patch in the series > > > rewrites that code anyway, perhaps exactly in a way that you want to > > > tell the contributor to use. > >=20 > > Actually, this is exactly how review works. It *does not* matter if lat= er > > code > > rewrote the same place again. If you found a problem in *current* > > commit/patch, > > that means that exactly *this* commit/patch needs to be fixed. >=20 > I think you misunderstood what I tried to explain, because you are > actually saying that wasting effort on reviewing of and commenting on > code that will be changed or reverted by a further commit is a Good > Thing. I did not say that. > But even if you did understand my point, are you really going to tell > me how to review patches?=C2=A0 Don't you think it's my decision, and not > yours?=C2=A0 In the project of which you are the maintainer, you can defi= ne > the procedures and the preferences as you see fit (and I will follow > if I need to contribute, as I do, for example, with GDB, where they do > want patch series), but you cannot force me use the procedures that > you find convenient and natural in a project where I need to review so > many patches each day. Neither I said how *you* should review patches. You seem to be out of conte= xt: you previous email was a reply to Sean's one-sentence email that they is ta= lking about the wider ecosystem. And your next reply was not in Emacs-only contex= t, but instead you were explaining problems with the wider approach. And so my explanation about code review practices is also in general. I did not expect you would start applying the practices used in "the wider ecosystem", because you clearly seem to be fine with how it works for you. = My reply was just an explanation of why other projects do what they are doing. (also, due to this misunderstanding I opted not to elaborate further on the other text above, because you seem to be taking this a bit personally)