From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 20:04:56 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87fs15kkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jhi3qx3.fsf@web.de> <83y1etkiuq.fsf@gnu.org> <6f376b44-0d57-0398-b494-a4cfdfa6d38c@gutov.dev> <83o7fpkd7g.fsf@gnu.org> <83leatkc6b.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32361"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, luangruo@yahoo.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 19 19:05:29 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mAh-00088n-JA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 19:05:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mAP-0001pB-PQ; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:05:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mAK-0001nP-GJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:05:05 -0500 Original-Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mAI-0001ie-Q8; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:05:04 -0500 Original-Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D1A320034E; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:05:00 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:05:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1700417099; x=1700503499; bh=kuEaUuziHxrryNgU5M6UwRgD0f3WNmzxIvA eQfen1NM=; b=C5MlDG+f8vCf6cL7tucBXakViO4F0b12mgB0dBPd1oqENO/WA8X AcGngzP88zTAorxI68ax8rmfAcAM/LG28Ds8cPE67gEB3wYJC1N0cqJNlSB2BU/t 34+1xKSMaSQMooaZguhokZXVjRmrXJgaXhuntyk2+gDUmzeGtaxodGZyzxkA/XAN traVpMPircGyf6jIARqJycE1TmxzU0uYnmAnlOtzwnKnYlofYJSnUz99Q48iYCSb Dzit1kXMd2zaMqJUHi/jWqrFS8WIzpXqJYs5EHQv24wIR1e3LjKDnt3TliM1tYE+ bh6SUk8z93jBX/T18HleYceRGz9c8s2tyVQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1700417099; x=1700503499; bh=kuEaUuziHxrryNgU5M6UwRgD0f3WNmzxIvA eQfen1NM=; b=tM9gH31SxMzUmfkCV79qGKrU8KpPkTjtDysehaXcDJpFc/TdPp/ cyzxGIVGPwtG9jH3dZNHM71sNEyFMz5/oS5VW7b2fRvbmqu7tthRz123Q3jGbe35 4bum9RQYttGlK1p2lj6P2SJqqmjKf31i8umCRnCWgdSNX/OGpfSPujuTMDu/d1HC JWjjukch0bEJY3mHvdvb6Zo9a7Zsr3/+k9Gj77x2Bvi1yL4vxon7F/8ceYEW2KAP VjncyqwMO0J7i8dq8DYoR97IZ7assUf1RZHwIUkpBl84CpjobUX2qGiv23hYTxxE WcDoTCoELqzMeAibhnvil8qnA5RGGcBU5YQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrudeggedguddtlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhm ihhtrhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrg htthgvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekieeikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeev ledvveenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe gumhhithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:04:58 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <83leatkc6b.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.19; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -75 X-Spam_score: -7.6 X-Spam_bar: ------- X-Spam_report: (-7.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313007 Archived-At: On 19/11/2023 17:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:58:39 +0200 >> Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, luangruo@yahoo.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, >> rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> >> On 19/11/2023 16:52, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What I don't like here in this discussion is that some people are not >>>>>> willing to accept that other people make different experiences with the >>>>>> same things. >>>>> This goes both ways, you know. >>>> The "other side" doesn't create threads with angry comments about the >>>> developers with opposing views writing lower-level verbose code >>>> (choo-choo trains, Joao called that), with calls to prohibit such practices. >>> I meant this very thread. The very previous message, actually. >> >> I don't see calls for prohibiting those implementation styles, in the >> previous messages, or anywhere. It would be impractical anyway. > > I wasn't talking about prohibiting, I was talking about accepting that > both sides have a right to describe their experiences. Perhaps you'll consider posting a message supporting both positions, then. >>>> OTOH, enacting a ban on particular abstractions will just about >>>> guarantee that certain kinds of features will not be implemented. >>> That's a strawman: no one of those who set policies here suggested any >>> bans. One should be able to post opinions for and against certain >>> coding styles without being accuse in mortal sins. >> >> No one is arguing about whether people are allowed to post opinions. >> >> There have been a few calls for working toward dropping pcase or cl-lib >> from the Emacs core, however. > > You need to know to whom you listen, before you make such far-reaching > conclusions. I don't think I've made any specific conclusion (or any predictions). But when some prolific contributors make such statements, and RMS is noticeably on their side, that can't help but create a certain impression to the public (this list is read not just by the core contributors).