From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Gendre Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:44:40 +0200 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="107651"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.1 (3.36.1-1.fc32) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 00:52:51 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInz-000Rux-6S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:52:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48444 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIny-0005Bj-8i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42300 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInA-0004I9-Bp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIn8-0003rD-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:51:58 -0400 Original-Received: from 50-102-31-185.ftth.cust.kwaoo.net ([185.31.102.50]:37890 helo=gandalf.k-7.ch) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIn7-0003WU-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:51:57 -0400 Original-Received: from escaflown.lan (Alfred.lan [192.168.1.1]) (Authenticated sender: seb) by gandalf.k-7.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ACA31E8100 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:44:41 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: none client-ip=185.31.102.50; envelope-from=seb@k-7.ch; helo=gandalf.k-7.ch X-detected-operating-system: by eggs1p.gnu.org: Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 185.31.102.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247332 Archived-At: # Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Based on some suggestions on this topic, and some personal reflections, I have a suggestion. (Sorry, I didn't read all messages, maybe someone had already suggest the same thing) Let's see some use-cases: - Bob: A newcomer, who just discover Emacs. He search somthing who is visually modern, with all features he need to start writing code in most popular languages: Code colouration, auto-completion, code navigation, code documentation and functions/methods signature automatically shown, code errors/warnings signalling, REPL integration, snippets, strong GIT integration, etc. He also want to use basic features without the need to read a tutorial. Just install and go. But he is ok to read some tuto or manuals for advanced features. If we ask him question(s) about what to enable or not, he probably cannot respond (or thing he cannot). For him, Emacs need to be the most out of the box possible. - Alice: A long time user. She got a personal Emacs configuration she had perfected over the years. She chose herself what system is used to show function completion, which code parser is used for her daily used languages. She add some packages to integrate with special tools used at her work. Emacs is her home and office: She use it as much for her personal project than for her work. She also made a personal workflow with org-mode and write some personal Elisp functions and advices. She forge the tools to her need. She do not want to have an update of Emacs who break her configuration, her workflow or her muscle memory. - Mei: She simply want to use SpaceEmacs. She need to be sure SpaceEmacs would work out of the box and be able to override all defaults Emacs configuration. So SpaceEmacs developers need a way to doing their work without the need to deactivate a hundred of default features one after another and risk to forget one. This possibility should be well documented. As the need of Mei is covered by SpaceEmacs, she doesn't have special request about Emacs except make it easy to use SpaceEmacs. - Roberto: He work on a pre-configuration of Emacs, similar to SpaceEmacs. He need a simple and documented way to deactivate all default configurations that would make is work difficult. If possible, in one move. And, of course, he need to know what is deactivated so he can choose wisely what to enable and what to not. For these 4 use-cases, we can simply provide 2 flavors of Emacs: - Emacs: With all the 2020 features, a modern interface, all needed modern features to start coding with most popular languages and easy to use for basic usages - Emacs Vanilla: All the new features are still there, but deactivate to not break anything And these 2 flavors can be in the same text editor: For switch from a flavor to another, simply enable the global-minor-mode `vanilla-mode`. And if Emacs detect, after an update or a first start, an already existing configuration that it could break because of some features: Emacs simply activate `vanilla-mode` automatically. For our use-cases, this would be: - Bob simply download and run Emacs. He got everything he wanted and start to code. Emacs can manage Bob projects, show documentation and errors, etc. Then, after some times, Bob can read some manuals to personalise his installation of Emacs. - Alice update Emacs. When she restart it, Emacs detect an already existing configuration that it could break by enabling some features. So, Emacs simply enable `vanilla-mode` and add it to the `init.el`. Emacs also show a message to Alice: "Emacs detected that you have some personal configuration, so it active Vanilla-mode to avoid breaking your configuration. Vanilla-mode deactivate some features that you can re-enable manually.". This message is accompanied by a clickable link to the documentation about the `vanilla-mode` to see what it does in the details and what is deactivate. - Mei simply download Emacs and SpaceEmacs. She follow SpaceEmacs instruction and everything work. - Roberto add `(vanilla-mode)` to his `init.el` file and start writing his pre-configuration of Emacs. He is certain that no future version of Emacs would break his work and he can share publicly his configuration as SpaceEmacs or Doom Emacs do. It's just a starting point, but I think this could be a simple but very useful solution.