From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 20:51:37 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87fs15kkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jhi3qx3.fsf@web.de> <83y1etkiuq.fsf@gnu.org> <6f376b44-0d57-0398-b494-a4cfdfa6d38c@gutov.dev> <83o7fpkd7g.fsf@gnu.org> <83leatkc6b.fsf@gnu.org> <83edglk345.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18208"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, luangruo@yahoo.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 19 19:52:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r4muW-0004WP-Vy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 19:52:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mtY-0008NY-Gk; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mtW-0008NH-Oq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:47 -0500 Original-Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r4mtU-0003e6-Rm; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:46 -0500 Original-Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CEA3200488; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:41 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1700419900; x=1700506300; bh=Nxh2bUZQqTkyQeC7l4DgEZDpKyEvps1OaPM 5THvQyI0=; b=a/UkND+j4Wx1M6y7zomQF0OgX7L9UCIwU2FVUlzON8op33w+Lx4 glWZcbQ9oNjC1ryTJNcLyC4j47jVl0zjwBUrQDMoGqeEVtbp51HXFWhxjSsnmcju 2mXPBCXnYUDsxQblDggQWWY1vrE4tGTNS+clAiDTJQtxnhhkbJFwKqk2013+Iauz VwEth195+OJ1sNUSiis0fium39ILbNqd27Edk67EHrFsRLznXjuNJ9RcrrnoVCue GSHXxRIFUa05apB+uafES9X5vC0ZpfYNgpc+9S2JasaoqYgpRiVOYPDaf4LJc/K7 ZqtCSGCcftZkhozQj8jdJnfGvrWP1cclZzg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1700419900; x=1700506300; bh=Nxh2bUZQqTkyQeC7l4DgEZDpKyEvps1OaPM 5THvQyI0=; b=PShJaKcEv2qKUV03BjwVCjbhL5JStblut5D0Z4Hm+ZviJpg0XoK DJrGnBZEXgvpNDaQGW4mtR84H4RQDzEJQZb4YYjOhnj9WkdKqkASsw7KR/gwMLYN WwkmjUl+MvYXr2Ua3ytoktUKbQUSkZpySDHRs6LMdlcDW9a2kazk/qWrrxDlOZc+ AMXt5iP6Fz3c54ClMNQRVFy0uUvxXVSpEDgMOT8zNuctS3zi99IsqpYkqyCxMF9+ PR1MsdOvaccMPu2gdNtjMXGqh80rzAihYz7ZWXy7bC+FMA6wfExW6I2J5rT56TM3 N9y+GSOBqdK6+h37bSI48RbYgIZfCOgPGeQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrudeggedguddukecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhm ihhtrhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrg htthgvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekieeikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeev ledvveenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe gumhhithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:51:39 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <83edglk345.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.19; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -75 X-Spam_score: -7.6 X-Spam_bar: ------- X-Spam_report: (-7.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313013 Archived-At: On 19/11/2023 20:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 20:04:56 +0200 >> Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, luangruo@yahoo.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, >> rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> >>>> I don't see calls for prohibiting those implementation styles, in the >>>> previous messages, or anywhere. It would be impractical anyway. >>> >>> I wasn't talking about prohibiting, I was talking about accepting that >>> both sides have a right to describe their experiences. >> >> Perhaps you'll consider posting a message supporting both positions, then. > > I don't understand what you mean by "supporting both positions". How > is it possible for a person to support two opposite positions? For example: I understand you guys and you guys, but we're not going to do any major changes (for the usual compatibility reasons, for example), though we would consider some minor improvements if either of you can suggest any. >>>>>> OTOH, enacting a ban on particular abstractions will just about >>>>>> guarantee that certain kinds of features will not be implemented. >>>>> That's a strawman: no one of those who set policies here suggested any >>>>> bans. One should be able to post opinions for and against certain >>>>> coding styles without being accuse in mortal sins. >>>> >>>> No one is arguing about whether people are allowed to post opinions. >>>> >>>> There have been a few calls for working toward dropping pcase or cl-lib >>>> from the Emacs core, however. >>> >>> You need to know to whom you listen, before you make such far-reaching >>> conclusions. >> >> I don't think I've made any specific conclusion (or any predictions). > > So your reference to "enacting a ban" is not a conclusion? Then why > are you condemning something about which you still didn't reach any > specific conclusions? I haven't made any predictions or conclusions as to whether a ban is forthcoming. Sometimes it helps to anticipate any such action, though, for example because many leaders feel it difficult to change position once a public declaration has been made. >> But when some prolific contributors make such statements, and RMS is >> noticeably on their side, that can't help but create a certain >> impression to the public (this list is read not just by the core >> contributors). > > That impression is unjustified, and acting on it raises the level of > unnecessary flames, and is not otherwise useful in any way. I'd like to help avoid it being made, on various observers.