From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: How to opt out of curly-quote spamming altogether? Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <> <<83fv38hfsx.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1440434417 6050 80.91.229.3 (24 Aug 2015 16:40:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:40:17 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 24 18:40:05 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTumy-0008A0-OP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:40:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55342 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTumy-0005L1-86 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:40:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTuhN-0003iY-OS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:34:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTuhM-0005im-JM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:34:17 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41515) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTuhI-0005fm-FK; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:34:12 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t7OGYBVL008976 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:34:11 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7OGYBbj022639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:34:11 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7OGYBTG004418; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:34:11 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83fv38hfsx.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189109 Archived-At: > > `help-quote-translation' does seem to prevent curly quotes in > > *Help* buffers, so at least there's that. But I'm looking for > > a switch to turn this virus OFF everywhere - to return to > > Classic Emacs. Surely such a simple ON/OFF switch exists? >=20 > It doesn't. What you see in Info is literal characters generated > when the documentation is built during the Emacs build process. > So, to change that, you will have to regenerate the documentation,=20 > telling makeinfo not to produce Unicode characters there. >=20 > Alternatively, you can set up your standard-display-table to display > those characters as their ASCII equivalents. That's horrible. Users should be able to control this, easily. I don't see this problem in a Windows binary from 2014-11-30. The regression was apparently introduced to the Windows builds between then and 2014-12-29. It sounds like this is a makeinfo build-time configuration decision. In that case, can Emacs please provide doc produced both ways, and let users choose the appearance they want? At least please make the non-curlified doc available as a separate download, with releases. Both doc alternatives could be separate downloads, with Emacs imposing no prejudice wrt bundling. The download site could also let users choose which they want, and automatically download both the code tarball sans doc and the chosen doc format. A display-table hack would presumably change all uses of a curly quote. That's not appropriate - it is only the code-"quoting" uses that need to be changable/configurable by a user. And if this is not really a problem then please provide users with a runtime choice, which fiddles with the display table as needed. Code-"quoting" (inline code display) is a final presentation thing. It should not be, in effect, hardcoded. If Texinfo/makeinfo is as inflexible as you suggest, maybe it really is time to move to XML/HTML with XSLT/CSS. Presentation should be separated from content/structure, and that is apparently not the case now. There should be some flexibility in how a given semantic construct, such as inline code, is finally presented. There has been a lot of noise about "modernizing" Emacs's appearance, behind the move to use curly quotes. Modernizing Emacs's appearance, including its doc, should first of all mean separating out presentation from content/structure. Whether the fault for this regression is with Texinfo/makeinf or Emacs core code changes, this "modernization" puts the cart before the horse, and is a step backward for users.