Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Stefan Kangas]

In 2014, there was a discussion about renaming "window" to "pane".
The current terminology dates back to the early 1980's, and while it's
unfortunate that other editors released since have adopted different
terminology, I believe it's time to admit defeat.  What we call a
"frame" is known as a "window" to 99.9 % of our new users, and to make
things worse we use "window" to describe something else entirely.

See the discussion here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00532.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00496.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00610.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00555.html

In that discussion, Stefan Monnier wrote (quoting RMS):
>> Conceivably we could rename "window" to "pane" and "frame" to "window".
>> I think the two renamings would have to be done in two different releases,
>> perhaps a year or two apart.
> Yup, it'd have to be a many-steps process:
> - first, rename "window" to "pane"
> - then rename "frame" to "window" (so frames would have 3 names:
>   screens, frames, and windows; tho admittedly we did finally get rid of
>   the "screen" aliases a few years ago).
>
> With a distinction between the Texinfo+docstring level and the Elisp
> code level.
>
> At the Lisp level, after renaming selected-window to selected-pane, we'd
> have to wait for the selected-window compatibility alias to disappear
> before we can rename selected-frame to selected-window.  I'd estimate
> that getting rid of the selected-window compatibility alias would take at
> least 20 years.
>
> This said, the "what you call a window is called a frame" is not nearly
> as problematic as "what we call window is not what you think", so maybe
> renaming "window" to "pane" would get us most of the benefit.
>
> So maybe the first step is the only one that really matters, and maybe
> my grand children can consider the second step when their time comes.
>
> I'm not sure how much change that represents, but if someone wants to
> take a stab at it... I'd be interested to see what it looks like.

I'd like to volunteer to take a stab at the first part here, namely
renaming "window" to "pane".

I've thought about this for a while, and I don't think the changes
involved are unfeasible.  I believe a realistic plan might look
something like this:

1. Change the names of the Lisp level functions to be named "window"
   instead of "pane" in window.c and window.el.  Make the old names
   into defaliases.  Update calls in Emacs to use the new names.  (I'm
   not sure if it would make sense to rename "window.{c,el}" to
   "pane.{c,el}" given how that makes it harder to browse Git
   history.)

2. Update elisp and emacs manual to introduce "pane" as a synonym for
   "window".  Make it clear that "pane" is the new and preferred
   terminology, but that old code and documentation might use "window"
   to mean the same thing.

3. Update doc strings of all functions changed above to talk about
   panes instead of windows.

I think this could be done in a feature branch, and, if the experiment
looks good, maybe we could considering merging it for Emacs 28.

I'd suggest to *not* do the following as part of the above initial plan:

- Update the C level code to use the new "pane" terminology.
- Update the Lisp code to internally only refer to "panes" (e.g. in
  let-bindings)
- Rename functions outside of window.el or window.c (OTOH, there's
  only ~500 of them, so maybe it's feasible?)
- Update all doc strings of all functions in Emacs where "window"
  shows up.
- Mark the above aliases obsolete.  (We could do that later.)

The excluded points would of course, in the context of a rename, make
sense to do eventually.  I believe they are too big tasks to do in a
single feature branch (perhaps we could do parts).  I'd therefore
suggest to first introduce the new terminology as the preferred one,
merge that, and then make these other changes incrementally over time.

(BTW, I count 56.480 hits for "window" in the tree, excluding
ChangeLogs, and presumably including a bunch of false positives for
window system, etc.)

Thoughts?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Filipp Gunbin]

Hi,

- Maybe it would suffice to rename things in UI (menus etc.) and in
  tutorial, for newcomers.  Also, elisp manual sections and docstrings
  for things related to windows may mention their UI "aliases" (pane).

- If we take the real transition, the confusion during it could be worse
  than now, because of not only "window is not what you think", but also
  of "pane = window".


More personal points:

- If a thing is named unambigously in a given environment, then maybe
  it's not so important what the name actually is.  Here I imagine a
  let-binding of symbol "window" :-)

- I find the historical naming of things attractive, personally.

Filipp

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Stefan Kangas]

Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm> writes:
> - If we take the real transition, the confusion during it could be worse
>   than now, because of not only "window is not what you think", but also
>   of "pane = window".

I think the confusion would be small in comparison to the current
situation.  In any case it would only exist during a transition
period, and decrease over time as code and documentation gets updated.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 00:07:33 +0100
> 
> 1. Change the names of the Lisp level functions to be named "window"
>    instead of "pane" in window.c and window.el.  Make the old names
>    into defaliases.  Update calls in Emacs to use the new names.  (I'm
>    not sure if it would make sense to rename "window.{c,el}" to
>    "pane.{c,el}" given how that makes it harder to browse Git
>    history.)
> 
> 2. Update elisp and emacs manual to introduce "pane" as a synonym for
>    "window".  Make it clear that "pane" is the new and preferred
>    terminology, but that old code and documentation might use "window"
>    to mean the same thing.
> 
> 3. Update doc strings of all functions changed above to talk about
>    panes instead of windows.
> 
> I think this could be done in a feature branch, and, if the experiment
> looks good, maybe we could considering merging it for Emacs 28.

What would be the criterion for success?

> I'd suggest to *not* do the following as part of the above initial plan:
> 
> - Update the C level code to use the new "pane" terminology.
> - Update the Lisp code to internally only refer to "panes" (e.g. in
>   let-bindings)
> - Rename functions outside of window.el or window.c (OTOH, there's
>   only ~500 of them, so maybe it's feasible?)
> - Update all doc strings of all functions in Emacs where "window"
>   shows up.
> - Mark the above aliases obsolete.  (We could do that later.)
> 
> The excluded points would of course, in the context of a rename, make
> sense to do eventually.  I believe they are too big tasks to do in a
> single feature branch (perhaps we could do parts).  I'd therefore
> suggest to first introduce the new terminology as the preferred one,
> merge that, and then make these other changes incrementally over time.

To tell the truth, I don't see how we could leave anything unrenamed.
The code is supposed to speak for itself, so if we want to use "pane",
we need to use it everywhere.  C code is no different from Lisp,
because people who develop and maintain Emacs modify both, so having
schizophrenic terminology will get in the way, certainly in the way of
those who didn't have the current terminology burnt into their muscle
memory.

Likewise any arguments we current call WINDOW: they will have to be
renamed to PANE.  And if we find arguments called WIND or WNDW (I hope
there are none), we will have to do something with those as well.

Local variables is a tougher nut, but ideally we should rename those
as well.

So I think if we are going to do this, we need to do all of it, lock,
stock, and barrel.

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It is not a matter of "defeat".  We did not stick with the terms
"frame" and "window" in the hope that other editors would follow us.
We did so to avoid the problems that the change would cause.

The idea of changing "window" to "pane" and keeping "frame"
would eliminate the worst of the problems.

Joke:
25 years ago, IBM called its version of the X Window System "PANES".
So you could have AIX and PANES on your Power PC.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Joke:
> 25 years ago, IBM called its version of the X Window System "PANES".
> So you could have AIX and PANES on your Power PC.

:-D

-- 
Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
<http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/>

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Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I have nothing in principle against renaming "window" to "pane", but
it would be a big transient.  Before doing that, I think we should
poll the users to see what they think about it.

Would this renaming affect only documentation, or would we make
new function names too?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I have nothing in principle against renaming "window" to "pane", but
> it would be a big transient.  Before doing that, I think we should
> poll the users to see what they think about it.

How would we go about polling the users?

This is indeed a big undertaking, seeing as there is 50.000+ instances
of "window" in the tree to consider.  I have made a few false starts,
but it's hard to decide the best way to start with such a big task.
I'm currently bogged down with real world commitments and dropped the
ball a bit here, but if there is interest I might be able to take
another stab at it when things clear up.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

RE: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Drew Adams]

> > I have nothing in principle against renaming "window" to "pane", but
> > it would be a big transient.  Before doing that, I think we should
> > poll the users to see what they think about it.
> 
> How would we go about polling the users?
> 
> This is indeed a big undertaking, seeing as there is 50.000+ instances
> of "window" in the tree to consider.  I have made a few false starts,
> but it's hard to decide the best way to start with such a big task.
> I'm currently bogged down with real world commitments and dropped the
> ball a bit here, but if there is interest I might be able to take
> another stab at it when things clear up.

IMHO (one user), not worth it.  And not really needed.

And would we then rename "frame" to "window", which
would engender further confusion, especially wrt
older versions and all of the existing Emacs
collateral outside Emacs proper?

Or if we didn't rename "frame", we would, in effect,
have "frame panes".

Really, I hope this gets discussed and decided based
on arguments pro/con _whether_ it should be done, and
not just green-lighted with discussion only of how
to go about doing it.

Every domain has its jargon.  And yes, some of it is
"just" historical - no logical need.  That is, there
may be a need for a term for something, but no
compelling need for the term to be what it has been
for historical reasons.  That applies to many Emacs
terms.

An Emacs frame is a window manager window; yes.  But
it also has Emacs properties/behavior.  Would it
matter if it were called "window" instead?  Not much,
but then we'd be saying "Emacs window" to indicate
when we were talking about its behavior/properties
as controlled by Emacs.

Anyway, I hope people think carefully about such a
possible renaming.  I've given my opinion, which
might change depending on arguments given, but so
far, no, please don't rename "window" to frame
"pane".

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Stefan Monnier]

> And would we then rename "frame" to "window", which

We won't be able to do that before (almost) all legacy uses of "window"
are gone (and not just from Emacs's own code), which will take many many
years (to get an idea: lexical-scoping and cl-lib are 7 years old now
and adapting code to them is much less intrusive than renaming all
`window`s to `pane`s), so it's important to realize that if it ever
happens we'll probably be significantly older than we are now.

W.r.t using "panes", we could start by making a *forward compatibility*
library `pane.el` distributed via GNU ELPA containing aliases to
the current `window` functions and variables.  Over time it can be
refined/improved to also rewrite docstrings and maybe try to tackle more
delicate issues (e.g. "alias" the `pane` property of overlays to
the `window` property).

This can be done without convincing anyone that we should rename
"window" to "pane", but can help prepare for it.


        Stefan

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Juanma Barranquero]

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On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:57 PM Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

> IMHO (one user), not worth it.  And not really needed.

[...]

> Every domain has its jargon.  And yes, some of it is
> "just" historical - no logical need.  That is, there
> may be a need for a term for something, but no
> compelling need for the term to be what it has been
> for historical reasons.  That applies to many Emacs
> terms.

Agreed. It's a lot of effort for a small terminological cleanup.

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Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> > And would we then rename "frame" to "window", which
>
> We won't be able to do that before (almost) all legacy uses of "window"
> are gone (and not just from Emacs's own code), which will take many many
> years [...]

I agree, and also like your summary here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00532.html

> W.r.t using "panes", we could start by making a *forward compatibility*
> library `pane.el` distributed via GNU ELPA containing aliases to
> the current `window` functions and variables.

This is an interesting idea, well worth considering.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

RE: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Drew Adams]

> I agree, and also like your summary here:...

Thanks for pointing to that thread, reminding us
that we've been through this all before.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00558.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00638.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00656.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00930.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00967.html

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I have nothing in principle against renaming "window" to "pane", but
  > > it would be a big transient.  Before doing that, I think we should
  > > poll the users to see what they think about it.

  > How would we go about polling the users?

Here's how I did it in the past:

* Make a file for the replies to go into.

* Make a mailing address which drops all mail into the file.

* Mail to info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs, and any other suitable
place, presenting the proposed change in sufficient detail that people
can judge it, and where to email the response, as well as what kind of
information we seek.

What we seek is not "votes", but understanding.  If you are for the
change, please explain why.  Would it help you directly?  If so, in
what scenario, and what would the benefit be?  And how important?

Or is it that you think it will help Emacs development by helping
others?  Please distinguish between what you know and what you guess.

Likewise, if you are against the change, please explain why.  Would it
inconvenience you directly?  If so, in what scenario, and what would
the inconvenience be?  And how important?

Or is it that you think it will harm Emacs development by
inconveniencing others?

We invite you also to propose changes in the proposal that would
improve it, for you -- saying in what scenario, and how.

* We state a deadline some weeks in the future, but since there is no
hurry, we wait some extra time before we look at the responses.

* Ultimately, we do not restrict ourselves to choosing between "make
the change" and "don't make it".  The best outcome is that the
feedback enables us to design a way to please almost everyone.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > This is indeed a big undertaking, seeing as there is 50.000+ instances
  > of "window" in the tree to consider.  I have made a few false starts,
  > but it's hard to decide the best way to start with such a big task.

We could decide not to change it because the change would be too much
work.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Thanks for pointing to that thread, reminding us
  > that we've been through this all before.

  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00558.html

  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00638.html

  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00656.html

  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00930.html

  > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00967.html

When you want to refer to a message, would you please include
its date and its message-ID?  With those, I can find them right away
in my local copy of old mail.  These URLs tell me which month, but nothing
more than could help me find them.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Apr 2, 2020, at 11:34, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> When you want to refer to a message, would you please include
> its date and its message-ID?  With those, I can find them right away
> in my local copy of old mail.  These URLs tell me which month, but nothing
> more than could help me find them.

>> Thanks for pointing to that thread, reminding us
>> that we've been through this all before.
> 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00558.html

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:31:06 &#45;0500
Message-Id: da8f0b12&#45;31a1&#45;44a3&#45;a682&#45;060a4e1fd80a@default

>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00638.html

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:07:01 &#45;0500
Message-Id: 7cecbad5&#45;1f01&#45;4c73&#45;811a&#45;aa11cc21d0a0@default

>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00656.html

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 15:31:52 &#45;0500
Message-Id: 70ad79fc&#45;f0ea&#45;4d57&#45;8866&#45;79be6362731f@default

>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00930.html

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:39:50 &#45;0500
Message-Id: 34c8c13b&#45;c5c6&#45;4e5a&#45;9248&#45;b09d5d1936da@default

>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg00967.html

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:24:31 &#45;0500
Message-Id: 3a96aa32&#45;0f21&#45;4ede&#45;97a0&#45;f57b0bc21661@default


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:31:06 -0500
  > Message-Id: da8f0b12-31a1-44a3-a682-060a4e1fd80a@default

Thanks.  Now I can search for these (I will do it tomorrow).
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Sam Steingold]

> * Drew Adams <qerj.nqnzf@benpyr.pbz> [2020-04-01 07:56:31 -0700]:
>
>> > I have nothing in principle against renaming "window" to "pane", but
>> > it would be a big transient.  Before doing that, I think we should
>> > poll the users to see what they think about it.
>> 
>> How would we go about polling the users?
>> 
>> This is indeed a big undertaking, seeing as there is 50.000+ instances
>> of "window" in the tree to consider.  I have made a few false starts,
>> but it's hard to decide the best way to start with such a big task.
>> I'm currently bogged down with real world commitments and dropped the
>> ball a bit here, but if there is interest I might be able to take
>> another stab at it when things clear up.
>
> IMHO (one user), not worth it.  And not really needed.

+1

> And would we then rename "frame" to "window", which
> would engender further confusion, especially wrt
> older versions and all of the existing Emacs
> collateral outside Emacs proper?

Exactly!

So it will take us 2-3 releases to rename "window" to "pane"
and then another 2-3 releases to rename "frame" to "window".

Thus, 10 years from now we will be in compliance with the
common terminology introduced in 1990-ies.

By then it is quite possible that the whole "window manager"
paradigm will be obsolete as more and more computing is done
on mobile devices with full-screen-only windows, where the
current Emacs terminology makes more sense.

So... how much effort are we willing to expend on this cosmetic change?
Don't we have something better to do with our time?


-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.1671
http://childpsy.net http://calmchildstories.com http://steingoldpsychology.com
https://jihadwatch.org https://www.dhimmitude.org https://jij.org
Never argue with the person who is preparing your parachute.

RE: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Drew Adams]

> > And would we then rename "frame" to "window", which
> > would engender further confusion, especially wrt
> > older versions and all of the existing Emacs
> > collateral outside Emacs proper?
> 
> Exactly!

Oh, and BTW, in the jargon of web browsers and HTML
there is even a notion of "frame" which is, in a way,
akin to an Emacs window: HTML element <frame>.
IOW, in a way, the two terms are swapped, to the
extent that anyone even uses "frame" outside Emacs.
(Element <frame> isn't used much anymore.)

[No, please don't bother to respond saying that the
analogies/correspondences aren't perfect.  The point
is that _confusion_ is probable if we start trying to
switch - and not just for the interim period when only
"window" is renamed.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(World_Wide_Web)

> So it will take us 2-3 releases to rename "window" to "pane"
> and then another 2-3 releases to rename "frame" to "window".
> Thus, 10 years from now we will be in compliance with the
> common terminology introduced in 1990-ies.

I think Stefan even said 20 years.  But yeah.

> By then it is quite possible that the whole "window manager"
> paradigm will be obsolete as more and more computing is done
> on mobile devices with full-screen-only windows, where the
> current Emacs terminology makes more sense.

Exactly.  Trying to sync with non-Emacs terminology
from 1994 and the creation of browsers is misguided
in multiple ways.

This is truly a YAGNI, IMO.  I've seen _no_ evidence
that novice Emacs users are taken aback by the Emacs
terminology of "window" and "frame".  It takes about
10 minutes to learn and assimilate the notions.

To me, this is a false, Sky-is-falling!! problem
promoted by some who seriously wonder/worry about an
apparent scarcity of Emacs newbies.  That alarmism
resurfaces here every few years...

And I'm not even convinced of said scarcity.  At
least from my point of view, Emacs is not, and should
not be, in a popularity contest with other editors.

Scarcity of Emacs developers is a different question,
I think.  And the window/frame terminology is in no
sense a hurdle in that regard (again, IMO).

> So... how much effort are we willing to expend on this cosmetic change?
> Don't we have something better to do with our time?

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 03.04.2020 21:34, Drew Adams wrote:
> Oh, and BTW, in the jargon of web browsers and HTML
> there is even a notion of "frame" which is, in a way,
> akin to an Emacs window: HTML element <frame>.
> IOW, in a way, the two terms are swapped, to the
> extent that anyone even uses "frame" outside Emacs.
> (Element <frame> isn't used much anymore.)

iframes are still used, and will continue to be used for years.

The terms are swapped, yes. If they weren't swapped (and just one of 
them had an "unusual" meaning in Emacs), that would have been less of a 
problem.

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 03.04.2020 20:59, Sam Steingold wrote:
> By then it is quite possible that the whole "window manager"
> paradigm will be obsolete as more and more computing is done
> on mobile devices with full-screen-only windows, where the
> current Emacs terminology makes more sense.

Do you imagine Emacs would use one-window-per-frame by them?

RE: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Drew Adams]

> > Oh, and BTW, in the jargon of web browsers and HTML
> > there is even a notion of "frame" which is, in a way,
> > akin to an Emacs window: HTML element <frame>.
> > IOW, in a way, the two terms are swapped, to the
> > extent that anyone even uses "frame" outside Emacs.
> > (Element <frame> isn't used much anymore.)
> 
> iframes are still used, and will continue to be used for years.

Yes, thanks.  I had mentioned only <frame> (which
isn't even supported in HTML5).

> The terms are swapped, yes. If they weren't swapped (and just one of
> them had an "unusual" meaning in Emacs), that would have been less of a
> problem.

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Sam Steingold]

> * Dmitry Gutov <qthgbi@lnaqrk.eh> [2020-04-03 21:54:17 +0300]:
>
> On 03.04.2020 20:59, Sam Steingold wrote:
>> By then it is quite possible that the whole "window manager"
>> paradigm will be obsolete as more and more computing is done
>> on mobile devices with full-screen-only windows, where the
>> current Emacs terminology makes more sense.
>
> Do you imagine Emacs would use one-window-per-frame by them?

Of course not.
What made you think that?!

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.1671
http://childpsy.net http://calmchildstories.com http://steingoldpsychology.com
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When we break the law, they fine us, when we comply, they tax us.

Re: Rename "window" to "pane" (after Emacs 27)

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 08.04.2020 18:34, Sam Steingold wrote:
>>> By then it is quite possible that the whole "window manager"
>>> paradigm will be obsolete as more and more computing is done
>>> on mobile devices with full-screen-only windows, where the
>>> current Emacs terminology makes more sense.
>> Do you imagine Emacs would use one-window-per-frame by them?
> Of course not.
> What made you think that?!

Ah, ok, I think I see your point.

Still, even 10 years later we'll have a lot of users remember what 
"window" means now. And they will be just as fine with the "pane" 
terminology, I'm sure.