From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggestions for mode-line-format changes Date: 27 Aug 2002 10:52:41 +0900 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20020826211610.4026D9865B@optonline.net> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1030413282 32531 127.0.0.1 (27 Aug 2002 01:54:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:54:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Kim F. Storm" , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17jVZ0-0008SP-00 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 03:54:38 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17jW46-0004ev-00 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 04:26:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17jVaJ-00033O-00; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:55:59 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17jVXe-0002rB-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:53:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17jVXc-0002pv-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:53:13 -0400 Original-Received: from tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp ([210.143.35.52]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17jVXb-0002nr-00; Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:53:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mailgate4.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.197]) by TYO202.gate.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W01080315) with ESMTP id g7R1qr427349; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:53 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mailsv.nec.co.jp (mailgate51.nec.co.jp [10.7.69.196]) by mailgate4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) with ESMTP id g7R1qq502428; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:52 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcsss2.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp ([10.30.114.133]) by mailsv.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV-NEC) with ESMTP id g7R1qpG25421; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:52 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (mcspd15 [10.30.114.174]) by mcsss2.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (8.10.2+Sun/3.7Wlsi_mx_6.0) with ESMTP id g7R1qks16858; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:51 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (Postfix, from userid 31295) id 3B42A36F2; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:42 +0900 (JST) Original-To: Michael Kifer System-Type: i686-pc-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-Reply-To: <20020826211610.4026D9865B@optonline.net> Original-Lines: 59 Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:6953 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:6953 Michael Kifer writes: > Somebody> [ediff's user interface seems generally pretty bad; I > Somebody> like the functionality, but never use it because it > Somebody> drives me nuts every time I try] > > I am open to suggestions, but I don't have much time to make major changes. I don't think anybody expects you to, certainly not without a real plan, and hopefully anyone who really wants a change would do the work. Anyway, though I don't like ediff's UI, it's not entirely clear to me what a better UI would look like; perhaps discussion could turn up some ideas. I think my main problem with ediff is that it seems way too stateful -- it sets up an `ediff session' and puts up a special `control frame' (or window), and generally seems very heavyweight. I guess many people like this (it's sort of like many dedicated GUI diff programs), but I don't; it's very un-emacsy. When I see all that state, I worry what happens if I forget that I'm ediffing and delete a buffer or change a buffer, &c. Maybe this worry is unwarranted, but I think it's kind of natural given the general style of the ediff UI. Compared to other programs, emacs gives the user much more freedom over the configuration of windows, etc., and the ability to freely switch to other tasks, so very stateful UIs often cause problems. [The same `stateful' complaint could be made about e.g. Gnus, but I find that when I want to use ediff, I also want to mess with CVS, visit other source files, etc., and generally mess up the nice window configuration ediff set up; this doesn't generally seem to happen with Gnus.] I'd prefer that _all_ ediff state be contained within the two buffers being diffed; if I kill them both, poof, no more ediff state (if I kill only one, who knows, but presumably an error when you try to perform an ediff operation). [Maybe this is the case already, and I'm being fooled by the appearance of the UI; what happens when you try two simulaneous ediff sessions, for instance?] This of course means that something has to be done about ediff commands; I'd be happy with a simple command-mode vs. edit-mode toggle (look at `diff-mode' for a particularly elegant implementation, BTW -- it puts all the special single-letter command shortcuts on a minor-mode keymap enabled by `buffer-read-only', so when the file's editable, you can edit it, and you can just do toggle-read-only to get the convenient shortcut commands). Anyway, that's my take. > PS. On the other hand, I receive tons of email attesting to the contrary. Well, I think there's no doubt that ediff contains some great functionality. -Miles -- `...the Soviet Union was sliding in to an economic collapse so comprehensive that in the end its factories produced not goods but bads: finished products less valuable than the raw materials they were made from.' [The Economist]