From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Date: 02 Apr 2003 10:33:14 +0900 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20030325193739.ZGIN3924.fep01-svc.swip.net@gaffa.gaia.swipnet.se> <3E8345E8.4090509@swipnet.se> <1048872463.17161.132.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1049134327.3326.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1049218005.16657.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1049247837 31878 80.91.224.249 (2 Apr 2003 01:43:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 01:43:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 02 03:43:54 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 190XIA-0008Ht-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:43:54 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 190XJ1-0000dy-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:44:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190XDN-0003Ll-05 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:38:57 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190XCj-0002bd-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:38:17 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190XCS-0001gt-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:38:04 -0500 Original-Received: from tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp ([202.32.8.202]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190XBt-0000ZA-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:37:25 -0500 Original-Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.194])h321auU09540; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:36:56 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id h321atF10113; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:36:55 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from edtmg05.lsi.nec.co.jp ([10.26.17.202]) by mailsv.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV-NEC) with ESMTP id h321XM920695; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:35:30 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcsss2.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) KAA03209; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:33:22 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (mcspd15 [10.30.114.174]) with ESMTP id h321XENH002159; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:33:15 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (Postfix, from userid 31295) id A301B3724; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:33:14 +0900 (JST) Original-To: Owen Taylor System-Type: i686-pc-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-Reply-To: <1049218005.16657.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Original-Lines: 41 Original-cc: rms@gnu.org Original-cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se Original-cc: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12825 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12825 Owen Taylor writes: > Actually, it would be interesting to know what percentage of emacs > users actually _drag_ the scrollbar to navigate in a document; it's > quite possible the primary use of the scrollbar is as a visual > indicator of where the current viewport is located within the > document. In which case, it's not clear to me that the scrollbar is > the right control at all. What are you suggesting? A knob? The scrollbar fits quite well, even if emacs users don't use it in exactly the same way as with other apps. In my personal use, I rarely drag -- but I _do_ sometimes, because occasionally it's the best way to quickly scan through a file. From what I've observed, novice users drag more often. > For GTK+, I really want to preserve the idea that the scrollbar > consists of a thumb of some length that can be positioned between two > extremes - at the top of the trough and at the bottom of the > trough. For it to change length while dragging is a bit peculiar. For > it to go past the ends of the trough, either literally or by shrinking > as it is pushed against the end is completely outside that model. The above two behaviors are merely _extensions_ to the `usual' behavior (as you define it), and fairly natural ones at that -- they extrapolate your `model' beyond the (arbitrary) boundaries you've set for other apps, but only in boundary cases, and only a little bit. I somehow get the impression you're worried that if GTK supports these extensions for emacs, it will `pollute' users' idea of how a scrollbar works; if so this seems kind of silly. Emacs should _definitely_ use the same scrollbar as other GTK apps because regardless of any different behavior in corner cases, it's 95% the same thing. Users know that when they want to scroll, they can use a scrollbar, and the emacs extensions being discussed make absolutely no fundamental changes in the way scrollbars work. -Miles -- Come now, if we were really planning to harm you, would we be waiting here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?