From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Date: 02 Apr 2003 12:55:49 +0900 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20030325193739.ZGIN3924.fep01-svc.swip.net@gaffa.gaia.swipnet.se> <3E8345E8.4090509@swipnet.se> <1048872463.17161.132.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1049134327.3326.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200304020330.h323Ugi11623@eel.dms.auburn.edu> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1049256704 25192 80.91.224.249 (2 Apr 2003 04:11:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 04:11:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 02 06:11:41 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 190ZbB-0006Xv-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:11:41 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 190Zc5-0001z5-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:12:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZZD-0001We-05 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:09:39 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZXx-00011S-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:08:21 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZXA-0000LZ-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:07:33 -0500 Original-Received: from tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp ([202.32.8.202]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZMP-0005hx-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:56:25 -0500 Original-Received: from mailgate4.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.197])h323tvU10605; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:57 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id h323tvh15788; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:57 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from edtmg02.lsi.nec.co.jp ([10.26.16.202]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV4-NEC) with ESMTP id h323tu512599; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:56 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcsss2.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) MAA15080; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:55 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (mcspd15 [10.30.114.174]) with ESMTP id h323toNH003822; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:54 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp (Postfix, from userid 31295) id DA4DC3724; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:55:49 +0900 (JST) Original-To: Luc Teirlinck System-Type: i686-pc-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-Reply-To: <200304020330.h323Ugi11623@eel.dms.auburn.edu> Original-Lines: 49 Original-cc: rms@gnu.org Original-cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se Original-cc: otaylor@redhat.com Original-cc: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12831 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12831 Luc Teirlinck writes: > Emacs should _definitely_ use the same scrollbar as other GTK apps > because regardless of any different behavior in corner cases, it's 95% > the same thing. > > I am not so sure. I personally believe that the difference between a > character based view and a pixel based view is more than 5%. I > believe there are essentially three possibilities: I use both, and even though I'm (very) occasionally surprised, they feel pretty much the same to me. I think my claim is that users don't really worry about the details so much, as long as things basically `feel' right, and that the differences being discussed simply aren't the sort that will cause real problems. > 3. Make the GTK scrollbar more customizable so that it can optionally > handle a character based approach and hence behave, within Emacs, > more like the native scrollbar than the pixel based variant of the > GTK scrollbar. I think this is the only reasonable solution. (1) is no good because, I _want_ an emacs scrollbar that looks like my other GTK scrollbars, follows my GTK theme, etc. I think many other users feel the same way. (2) seems like a non-starter, because by looking the same, it would end up causing exactly the same problems that (3) would (to the extent that there are such problemsd), only it would be worse, because such `lookalike' implemenations are inevitably imperfect. > Owen should clarify his concerns himself, but I have the impression > that his concerns with solution 3. (and 2., I guess) are that users > would not longer clearly know what to expect when they see a GTK > scrollbar. The appearance of the GTK scrollbar was chosen to provide > a metaphor for a a pixel based approach. Exact same appearance with > different behavior is confusing, unless the difference was due to > customizations deliberately made by the user (as opposed to by the > application). I think that if this is the worry, it's groundless, because the emacs extensions are just that -- extensions, which extrapolate existing behavior, not really arbitrary differences in details, which is the usual case of problems arising with lookalike implemenations. -Miles -- o The existentialist, not having a pillow, goes everywhere with the book by Sullivan, _I am going to spit on your graves_.