From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 21:32:05 -0700 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83imh5hby1.fsf@gnu.org> <2e4e8ce9-d857-f3e3-31cf-a40dee67bd25@yandex.ru> <83y2q1dsvh.fsf@gnu.org> <2468efa6-7dbd-8634-44cc-586bb6985f49@yandex.ru> <83pnbddrfd.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <2c09354e7994f0e61271ab0078256a9dc4202171.camel@k-7.ch> <9f1e538a-eb34-8d65-b3bb-87fd2f3690cf@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="99369"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: casouri@gmail.com, seb@k-7.ch, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 06:34:38 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYj6M-000PkW-KZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 06:34:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60244 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYj6L-000080-Ii for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 00:34:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36156) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYj41-0006HA-K9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 00:32:13 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3]:50234) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYj40-0008O5-7S; Wed, 13 May 2020 00:32:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:References:Cc:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hs4LAz+ChqsSP50DzmRk8ni3lazI7b5PYx1DEfj3Hpo=; b=NQ4W01PlzUhTRzkQwOMF3ZPFu4 BJKWM3pwzHg3+TTwSfINYD2LPzE9LPKa+n9e5VOeITRnXHZkcTUrsFK/CvQbeniHfQWQ8479k86IT ofQFOAWaFCNHcbAVyRt6EmzzKybEXlvKnjX0IkO/iOOis7m41W+DNyk3Lx0+VsBKGoFG06FW+LjAw 4X38NEJTewx5vVaDOt5HQrhNNyPDP+CanTEdbMrZuPiN2G8FTn1bBF1au7nSSRlYgUShtqQd7mwK8 6rx6MAKjNfj8UEGJif1PLc4dzkF3/Df6yis91dnGJicA8PSC4coPVlGeBZvKYKnkj/gK+GzBdXVfe LK3rLisw==; Original-Received: from [2604:4080:1321:9a00:519a:d934:f5c4:db2e] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jYj3u-0003Ha-8i; Tue, 12 May 2020 21:32:06 -0700 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:adf3; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: 12 X-Spam_score: 1.2 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam_report: (1.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250095 Archived-At: On 5/11/20 8:21 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > If someone downloads Emacs and > > it doesn't even approximate a modern editing experience out-of-the-box, > > people are going to use other, less-free or non-free tools. > > Just because a different way is "modern" does not make it morally > legitimate. Especially not in computing! The modern way of doing > computing is to use apps on a smartphone, each spying on you for a > server -- and that is almost always unjust. It takes special care > to do it in a way that isn't unjust. Supporting jump-to-definition is not tantamount to supporting a surveillance state. > > The moral > > purity of a program doesn't matter if it has no impact, and a program > > with no users has no impact. > > The assumptions in the concept of "impact" do not fit the free > software movement. The opposite of impact is irrelevance. Do you want free software to be relevant? If something makes a difference, that means that it has impact. If something doesn't make a difference, it's not worth anyone's time to keep doing it. If purity and not impact is the goal, why bother with continued development? Emacs is already pure. > That word assumes that we accumulate a certain > amount of capacity to have impact, which we can then use against > against whatever target we choose -- like ammunition in a shooter > game. No, it doesn't. > That may be valid for some kinds of goals. Especially those, such as > profit, that can be achieved with popularity regardless of how that > popularity is achieved. But it is not valid for what we do. > > The impact we aim for in the GNU Project consists of leading people to > move away from nonfree software and to understand how it is unjust. > To achieve this, we have to act in accord with our moral stand, in a > way that is visibly firm and sincere. Who's going to use software that's inferior to alternatives? When the pursuit of purity prompts you make free software worse on purpose, all you do is teach people that free software is worse software. I hope that's not the lesson that you want people to take away from the experience of trying Emacs. Besides: it's not as if we're talking about adding a button that purchases Microsoft Visual Studio (or, heaven forbid, that renders emoji using multiple colors). We're talking about one piece of free software using and recommending another other piece of free software. You're worried that this other free software might through some chain of references lead users to non-free software. The same concern says we shouldn't make free software web browsers lest we lead users into temptation. The culpability for that is too speculative to attach itself to Emacs.