From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs project mission (was Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:242689 Archived-At: > > > The question was why a lot of users shy away > > > from reporting bugs to us. > > > > That's an assumption at this point, no? What > > evidence has been presented, besides anecdotal? >=20 > Only anecdotal evidence is possible, so I don't > see that as avoidable. Other ways to gather evidence are possible. But even if anecdotal evidence were all that was possible, it remains not super useful for making decisions about which bug reporting, tracking, and management tools to use. That's all the more important if the choice is to abandon the current system altogether and switch to another one, instead of letting users continue to use email, as well letting them use other ways to report bugs and enhancement requests.=20 > I will say this: my anecdotal evidence matches > that of others here. Which others? What's your anecdotal evidence about whether users report bugs if you suggest to them to use `M-x report-emacs-bug'? > In theory, the current bug reporting system is fine. > In practice, it conflicts with the way modern users > are used to doing things and with the configuration > of modern single user systems. That's not what I, and the post I responded to, was referring to. That's a much more general question. I was speaking to the narrower question of whether they report a bug, when we suggest to users (of Emacs Q&A or discussion web sites) that, for their particular observation, suggestion, or question, they use `M-x report-emacs-bug'. My anecdotal finding is that they do. The anecdotal finding I responded to was that they don't - because they're scared of sending an email. I've said that anecdotal evidence isn't super useful. But it can be of some use - different observations can help. But at least we shouldn't jump from one person's observation to a general presumption that "a lot of users shy away from reporting bugs to us". I offered my contrary observation. And I thought it was worthwhile to point out that we were both offering just personal anecdotes. Why is the narrower question useful? It can speak, even if only anecdotally, to the extent to which users don't report bugs because they need to send email (whether from fear or any other reason). The claim for which I said evidence hasn't been presented was that "a lot of users shy away from reporting bugs to us". That claim then tried to direct discussion to why that presumed fact is so. I asked how we know it to be a fact. Shades of the classic, "When did you stop beating your wife?" The question why lots of users are afraid to report bugs begs the question of whether they in fact are. The claim you make is that `M-x report-emacs-bug' "conflicts with" what "modern users" are used to, and with the computer systems they use (no email?). If such users don't hesitate to `report-emacs-bug', then where's the conflict? (I assume users on the sites I mentioned include some of your "modern users".) Whether there might be other useful ways to let users report bugs is a different question. That possibility could be offered instead of, or in addition to, `M-x report-emacs-bug' (email). =20 I gather, from your claim of "conflict" that you favor the former. A priori, I'd prefer the latter: let users optionally continue to use email to report, if they like. But whether such other ways (from Slack-like to GitHub-like, to JIRA-like, to any number of other "way[s] modern users are used to doing things") might be _useful_ is quite a different question from whether such ways "conflict with the current bug reporting system". Please don't confuse such different questions in your zeal to promote a particular recourse. These are (should be, anyway) still early days wrt finding out what the actual story is and then, if need be, examining possible remedial actions.