From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Preview: portable dumper Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:16 -0800 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <047a67ec-9e29-7e4e-0fb0-24c3e59b5886@dancol.org> <83zikjxt1j.fsf@gnu.org> <8360n6ruzu.fsf@gnu.org> <0839b53b-4607-144f-3746-db054a29c1cd@cs.ucla.edu> <83zikiqdu5.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1480452872 14743 195.159.176.226 (29 Nov 2016 20:54:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:54:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 Cc: dancol@dancol.org, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 29 21:54:28 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cBpQ3-0003W1-Ke for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:54:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39241 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBpQ7-0006Hh-9Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:54:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43707) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBpQ0-0006HQ-H9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:54:25 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBpPz-00015e-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:54:24 -0500 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33024) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBpPu-00010g-MK; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:54:18 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55861160129; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:17 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 9b78vzpyr3R0; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9389216012B; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ppOB_ciVG48S; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B00C160129; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83zikiqdu5.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:209767 Archived-At: On 11/29/2016 11:35 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I didn't compare the proposed portable dumper with what we have now, That's our fundamental disagreement, then. I am willing to settle for real improvements to Emacs even if they are not ideal. And I think that this sort of willingness is more likely to attract contributions from developers. > leading a project to be viable in the > future needs to look at the reality, not at our wishful thinking Daniel's proposed change consists of code that works and that runs fast. Isn't that reality? And in contrast, isn't the lread-based approach wishful thinking? > When did you last try to hire a C or C++ programmer? I don't *hire* them, I *create* them. I currently have 450 undergraduate students, and C++ and C are the only programming languages that they have all written and debugged code in. (This is not just my decision; it comes from our faculty's curriculum.) According to Philip Guo's 2014 survey, the most popular languages used in teaching computer science in top U.S. universities are Python (25-30%), Java (20-25%), C/C++ (10-15%), and MATLAB (5-10%). So from what I can see, the C pipeline is by no means empty. Anyway, although C has probably passed its peak and will surely die out eventually, it's unlikely for this to be anytime soon. The prospect of its demise shouldn't materially affect our choice of Emacs dumping technology in the meantime.