Accessible "building from source" instructions

Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

I've been looking for a simple instructions to point users to, so 
anybody can try building an Emacs 27 snapshot.

Here's the closest official URL I could find: 
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE

The script at the top should be a good starting point, but it does more 
than just "build and run Emacs from scratch".

In particular, it changes the user's Git configuration. And if somebody 
just copy-pastes in into their terminal, it will bork their global Git 
config. So how about we remove those lines, or move them to a separate 
section?

Or is there a better page I can link to?

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[T.V Raman]

Here is what I use to checkout and build from Git: This assumes that
platform-specific package dependencies are already installed 

#!/bin/sh
#
git reset --hard
git pull --rebase --all
./configure --enable-silent-rules --with-x-toolkit=lucid \
--with-mailutils --with-modules --without-compress-install
make -j 8 V=0 bootstrap
make -j 8 V=0

-- 

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 26.05.2019 3:25, T.V Raman wrote:
> Here is what I use to checkout and build from Git: This assumes that
> platform-specific package dependencies are already installed
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> #
> git reset --hard
> git pull --rebase --all
> ./configure --enable-silent-rules --with-x-toolkit=lucid \
> --with-mailutils --with-modules --without-compress-install
> make -j 8 V=0 bootstrap
> make -j 8 V=0

Thank you, but a) this is very specific to your own preferences, b) I 
need something on the Web to be able to link to it.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 618 bytes --]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> In particular, it changes the user's Git configuration. And if somebody just 
> copy-pastes in into their terminal, it will bork their global Git config.

The Git configuration should be a good one for Emacs development, and these 
commands (at least the transfer.fsckObjects part) should be done before the 
first 'git clone' command. That being said, you're right that people who aren't 
contributing to Emacs don't need a development-oriented Git configuration. So I 
separated the development-oriented commands from the fetch-and-build commands by 
installing the attached patch into master.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-CONTRIBUTE-Split-git-configuration-from-fetch-and-bu.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1019 bytes --]

From 461cb9217d83c0518de2e9bb6fd3ee0d8cd0626b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 18:29:16 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] * CONTRIBUTE: Split git configuration from fetch-and-build

---
 CONTRIBUTE | 5 ++++-
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/CONTRIBUTE b/CONTRIBUTE
index a5433e30d3..f257fc57f0 100644
--- a/CONTRIBUTE
+++ b/CONTRIBUTE
@@ -7,11 +7,14 @@ or run the shell command 'info "(emacs)Contributing"'.)
 ** The Emacs repository
 
 Emacs development uses Git on Savannah for its main repository.
-Briefly, the following shell commands build and run Emacs from scratch:
+To configure Git for Emacs development, you can run the following:
 
 	git config --global user.name 'Your Name'
 	git config --global user.email 'your.name@example.com'
 	git config --global transfer.fsckObjects true
+
+The following shell commands then build and run Emacs from scratch:
+
 	git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git
 	cd emacs
 	./autogen.sh
-- 
2.17.1

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 26.05.2019 4:30, Paul Eggert wrote:

> The Git configuration should be a good one for Emacs development, and 
> these commands (at least the transfer.fsckObjects part) should be done 
> before the first 'git clone' command. That being said, you're right that 
> people who aren't contributing to Emacs don't need a 
> development-oriented Git configuration. So I separated the 
> development-oriented commands from the fetch-and-build commands by 
> installing the attached patch into master.

Thank you. Now somebody needs to update the version of this file on the 
website.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> Thank you. Now somebody needs to update the version of this file on the website.

Although I did that, I don't recommend using that URL as it's updated only 
irregularly. Yes, this is bad, but unfortunately savannah.gnu.org is still 
requiring CVS to update its website pages. Hardly any developer knows how to use 
CVS any more. Although I was a heavy CVS user two decades ago, I've forgotten 
too, and I have no idea why savannah is still stuck on CVS.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, I suggest using this URL:

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/plain/CONTRIBUTE

Similarly, for INSTALL.REPO, I suggest:

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/plain/INSTALL.REPO

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 26.05.2019 11:50, Paul Eggert wrote:

> Although I did that, I don't recommend using that URL as it's updated 
> only irregularly. Yes, this is bad, but unfortunately savannah.gnu.org 
> is still requiring CVS to update its website pages. Hardly any developer 
> knows how to use CVS any more. Although I was a heavy CVS user two 
> decades ago, I've forgotten too, and I have no idea why savannah is 
> still stuck on CVS.

Thanks. That's unfortunate.

> Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, I suggest using this URL:
> 
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/plain/CONTRIBUTE
> 
> Similarly, for INSTALL.REPO, I suggest:
> 
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/plain/INSTALL.REPO

OK. But what I'd really like is *one* page I can link to.

The context: there is this README.md file (sort of official webpage for 
js2-mode), and it would really be better if the words "build from 
source" were a hyperlink to something helpful:

https://github.com/mooz/js2-mode/blob/master/README.md

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 01:50:03 -0700
> Cc: Emacs Development <Emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Hardly any developer knows how to use 
> CVS any more. Although I was a heavy CVS user two decades ago, I've forgotten 
> too

CVS has an Info manual, quite a good one.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

> CVS has an Info manual, quite a good one.

Yes, and since I had forgotten most of CVS, I went to that manual yesterday when 
I updated the GNU Emacs web pages. The manual wasn't useful for me. I guess it's 
designed for someone who either (a) doesn't know version control and needs a 
tutorial on the topic, or (b) already knows CVS reasonably well but needs to 
know more. I fall into neither category, and I daresay most developers nowadays 
are in the same camp as me.

Yesterday I solved my problem in the usual way: I used a search engine and found 
a cheat sheet somewhere. From my point of view the CVS manual is an interesting 
historical artifact, but not helpful now. And I write this as a former 
contributor to and partisan of CVS.

It's a bit of an embarrassment to the GNU project that savannah.gnu.org still 
requires the use of CVS. It's long been past time to move on.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, Emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 13:08:26 -0700
> 
> Yesterday I solved my problem in the usual way: I used a search engine and found 
> a cheat sheet somewhere.

The CVS manual includes such a cheat sheet.

Of course, there's also the Emacs VC, which still supports CVS.  You
can even do "C-x v v" without knowing what exactly does it do.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Yesterday I solved my problem in the usual way: I used a search engine and found
>> a cheat sheet somewhere.
> The CVS manual includes such a cheat sheet.

No doubt it does, but I didn't find it with a quick look and it was easier for 
me to use a search engine.

> Of course, there's also the Emacs VC, which still supports CVS.  You
> can even do "C-x v v" without knowing what exactly does it do.

Yes, but this requires setting up the local CVS repository in the first place 
which C-x v v doesn't do. Plus, I don't use C-x v v even for Git, so I'd need to 
relearn C-x v v's quirks. Plus, Fedora no longer ships CVS by default, so I had 
to install CVS first. And most likely there was another minor roadblock that 
I've forgotten.

We each have our own way of using Git, and it's inevitable that one must do 
things differently with CVS. Of course CVS works eventually, but we'd be better 
off using the same version-control system with web pages as we do for code, and 
it's a bit discouraging that Savannah's web pages are still stuck on CVS.

How much would it cost to convert Savannah's web pages to Git? Is it time for a 
pity fundraiser?

web pages in CVS [was Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions]

[Glenn Morris]

Paul Eggert wrote:

> How much would it cost to convert Savannah's web pages to Git? Is it
> time for a pity fundraiser?

Maintaining infrastructure sure is a thankless task.

It's a www.gnu.org issue, not a Savannah issue.
Implement a two-way sync from git to CVS today if you like. Ref eg

http://lists.gnu.org/r/savannah-hackers-public/2013-04/msg00022.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2012-12/msg00072.html

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, Emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:59:31 -0700
> 
> How much would it cost to convert Savannah's web pages to Git? Is it time for a 
> pity fundraiser?

I'm not sure the problem is resources of that kind.  But the right
place to discuss this is on savannah-hackers-public, I think, not
here.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > it's a bit discouraging that Savannah's web pages are still stuck on CVS.

I edit the gnu.org web pages frequently, and my decision is to keep
them in CVS.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It's a bit of an embarrassment to the GNU project that savannah.gnu.org still 
  > requires the use of CVS. It's long been past time to move on.

That is not so.  Savannah supports Git as well as CVS.

CVS is important, and we will not desupport it.
This is a substantive question; it should not be decided
on account of how people feel about the fact that we use it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Andreas Schwab]

On Mai 25 2019, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:

> The Git configuration should be a good one for Emacs development, and
> these commands (at least the transfer.fsckObjects part) should be done
> before the first 'git clone' command.

That doesn't need to clobber the global config.  You can pass config
options also via git -c.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

Andreas Schwab wrote:

> You can pass config options also via git -c.

Sure, but won't you need to pass those options each time you invoke git? That 
would be awkward. Although I'm no fan of setting global options, convenience is 
also a virtue here.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Andreas Schwab]

On Mai 26 2019, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:

> Andreas Schwab wrote:
>
>> You can pass config options also via git -c.
>
> Sure, but won't you need to pass those options each time you invoke git?

You can modify the repository config without clobbering the global
config.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

Andreas Schwab wrote:
> You can modify the repository config without clobbering the global
> config.

Yes, but then one must give extra command-line arguments to the sample 'git 
clone' command, to specify the configuration info needed when obtaining the 
clone, and I want the sample 'git clone' command to be simple.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Andreas Schwab]

On Mai 26 2019, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:

> Yes, but then one must give extra command-line arguments to the sample
> 'git clone' command, to specify the configuration info needed when
> obtaining the clone, and I want the sample 'git clone' command to be
> simple.

How is that less simple than running extra commands?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Paul Eggert]

Andreas Schwab wrote:
>> Yes, but then one must give extra command-line arguments to the sample
>> 'git clone' command, to specify the configuration info needed when
>> obtaining the clone, and I want the sample 'git clone' command to be
>> simple.
> How is that less simple than running extra commands?

When people run 'git clone' more than once. It happens.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 02:34:17 +0300
> 
> I've been looking for a simple instructions to point users to, so 
> anybody can try building an Emacs 27 snapshot.
> 
> Here's the closest official URL I could find: 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE

INSTALL.REPO is supposed to be it.  If it isn't, please tell what's
missing there.

> The script at the top should be a good starting point, but it does more 
> than just "build and run Emacs from scratch".
> 
> In particular, it changes the user's Git configuration. And if somebody 
> just copy-pastes in into their terminal, it will bork their global Git 
> config. So how about we remove those lines, or move them to a separate 
> section?

We should separate them, and tell that they are only for those who are
setting up Git for the first time and/or have write access to the
Emacs upstream repository.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 26.05.2019 5:42, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> I've been looking for a simple instructions to point users to, so
>> anybody can try building an Emacs 27 snapshot.
>>
>> Here's the closest official URL I could find:
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE
> 
> INSTALL.REPO is supposed to be it.  If it isn't, please tell what's
> missing there.

Two things, I guess:

* There is no repo URL there, which would be step 1.
* Which address would I use to link to it? 
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/INSTALL.REPO?

I would prefer a page on the official website. Or maybe in the online 
version of the manual?

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 11:25:48 +0300
> 
> > INSTALL.REPO is supposed to be it.  If it isn't, please tell what's
> > missing there.
> 
> Two things, I guess:
> 
> * There is no repo URL there, which would be step 1.

Fixed.

> * Which address would I use to link to it? 
> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/INSTALL.REPO?

Yes, I think so.

Re: Accessible "building from source" instructions

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 26.05.2019 19:36, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>>> INSTALL.REPO is supposed to be it.  If it isn't, please tell what's
>>> missing there.
>>
>> Two things, I guess:
>>
>> * There is no repo URL there, which would be step 1.
> 
> Fixed.
> 
>> * Which address would I use to link to it?
>> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/INSTALL.REPO?
> 
> Yes, I think so.
A solid improvement. Linked to it now. Thank you!