From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jostein_Kj=c3=b8nigsen?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Elisp LSP Server Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 07:25:37 +0100 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8100571.MQnaI0vtd3@galex-713.eu> <2131617.6ipFHDhFrr@galex-713.eu> <97672d50-e183-445d-9661-5fec61ae5a96@www.fastmail.com> <877ddnqh8r.fsf@db48x.net> Reply-To: jostein@kjonigsen.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7nTKIXaJtifFKmeo8Jhii6eT" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26280"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Cc: jostein@kjonigsen.net, "Richard M. Stallman" , galex-713@galex-713.eu, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Brooks , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 05 07:28:02 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mishl-0006bs-H6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 07:28:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34190 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mishj-0006D3-Cx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 02:27:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37602) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1misfc-0005HT-QQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 02:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:57617) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1misfZ-0001Do-Pt; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 02:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A755B3201C40; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 02:25:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= secure.kjonigsen.net; h=content-type:message-id:date :mime-version:reply-to:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to; s=fm1; bh=gWDoeLq1EzTQxbd0DXoty2QvApkh63X4qMP2G+yU mO4=; b=OVHnYG7FaK3aQ0yLeAEzgspZRsAfnavyopjdlFqnkOrz8QaOa/5hF+Ne 78J+iIvJJ1DtUim0RUX1SBIJvuoelD1UG6TuChqCO5M4MbrWtkEQzVp0BcGOsEzH WjjGkIJk99hSvrSwvtSupi1fME/Cw/FQrac8NBO1YcAJVMuapbRkByN5tu3pC0PW 2cTwhttYz7tujLrclRKrsUkV6uuquIMhQT1FaCvJIQ0saHj6pXz5sDoltB1d3FN8 0RvJuiBPZCI9Qyw9B5i9yBkxuSLO1EmVJ+kQdbvTGyYx50gT6FDufqrKA0gacfKo eqY/aZAuwG4XZKcDxUDT7L74cLEL9A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=gWDoeLq1EzTQxbd0DXoty2QvApkh63X4qMP2G+yUmO4=; b=aN19GUS4 Hy6RtJNgatcIvxE3JUos1nk/7SawHZv70BM7cucAAk7O/mEawWtPt7DoXq1RVJYI N1Hb6UovKF27weZQr5vJ1ec9IPlhSzKOZlVE0kvvgJgI50BPDEhiqlJLxGgCu3vt IApD4CU9ng+cyW1HaOzqhEzqa8g4VxlBoRb/K2aE42eJfEsEKsjIhWbmDGr0+L8/ +DkI7iqL8bVLfjT3X4YgWzX6C9oyRT/IXOLSL+0891iaYjYVFQP51sKhyJF+QT3u +lxJzqCnwvrp/LoJG5mPQWbxy7fHz+sBVtJTwEpt+wVEsAHyMd1T/4nQfaLkyHbM BIm+as5M5KJstA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtdehgdeludcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptgfkffggfghruffvfhfhjgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomheplfhoshhtvghinhgpmfhjpphnihhgshgvnhcuoehjohhsthgv ihhnsehsvggtuhhrvgdrkhhjohhnihhgshgvnhdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnh epteefueelgeevteduheelteevleehvdfgteejgeehudehfeevkeeufefgffetieejnecu ffhomhgrihhnpehkjhhnihhgshgvnhdrnhhonecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhoshhtvghinhesshgvtghurhgvrdhkjhhonhhi ghhsvghnrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Content-Language: en-GB In-Reply-To: <877ddnqh8r.fsf@db48x.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.24; envelope-from=jostein@secure.kjonigsen.net; helo=wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -47 X-Spam_score: -4.8 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.093, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:278739 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7nTKIXaJtifFKmeo8Jhii6eT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 05.11.2021 06:55, Daniel Brooks wrote: > > I admit I wasn’t following the discussion, but I think that it is > becoming more common for people to run large applications inside the > browser. I admit not following 100% either, but I think the original argument was that users sometimes likes or have the need to edit Emacs LISP-files  outside Emacs, like in online code-forges like GitHub, GitLab and other places. For the time being these forges, or no editor outside Emacs really, offers adequate support for Emacs LISP. I guess the argument was that if there was an Emasc LISP LSP-server available for them to use, that might change, and that it could in theory advance the case of Emacs through making Emacs LISP more accessible. If that's how it will turn out in the real world is anyone's guess :) > > Anyway, VSCode tries to make it as easy as possible for their users to > get started programming in their favorite languages. The VSCode user can > generally go to a list of plugins inside of VSCode, find one for their > language, check the checkbox next to it, and more or less immediately > start programming in that language, complete with LSP integration. VSCode has seen huge adoptation, also among free software proponents, now being the #1 most popular code-editor in the world (from not even existing 10 years ago). I believe this aspect here is a very important reason for VSCode having reached the number of users it have. If we were to apply similar attention to how new Emacs users get started with Emacs, it would most likely affect the amount of new Emacs-users staying around as long-term Emacs users. A somewhat usable out-of-the-box experience is now considered a pretty fundamental requirement for most software, and not taking that into consideration is by most people considered not viable in the long term. > As far as I > know, Microsoft Office does not give the user the option of exporting > their document as an OpenOffice file, but OpenOffice does allow > exporting documents as Microsoft Office files. Microsoft Office tries to > keep people from straying from Microsoft products, while OpenOffice does > not. Clearly somewhat off-topic, but Microsoft Office actually offers support for the OpenOffice/LibreOffice OpenDocument file-formats. Both for opening and saving. When you start Microsoft Office for the first time you are also asked which one of these file-format families you would want to be your default. > I hope something in that ramble was helpful! Oh certainly. You expressed yourself much more in depth and much clearer than I would, had I answered the same email. -- Vennlig hilsen *Jostein Kjønigsen* jostein@kjonigsen.net 🍵 jostein@gmail.com 🍵 jostein@hufleslufs.no https://jostein.kjønigsen.no --------------7nTKIXaJtifFKmeo8Jhii6eT Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 05.11.2021 06:55, Daniel Brooks wrote:

I admit I wasn’t following the discussion, but I think that it is
becoming more common for people to run large applications inside the
browser.

I admit not following 100% either, but I think the original argument was that users sometimes likes or have the need to edit Emacs LISP-files  outside Emacs, like in online code-forges like GitHub, GitLab and other places.

For the time being these forges, or no editor outside Emacs really, offers adequate support for Emacs LISP.

I guess the argument was that if there was an Emasc LISP LSP-server available for them to use, that might change, and that it could in theory advance the case of Emacs through making Emacs LISP more accessible. If that's how it will turn out in the real world is anyone's guess :)

 
Anyway, VSCode tries to make it as easy as possible for their users to
get started programming in their favorite languages. The VSCode user can
generally go to a list of plugins inside of VSCode, find one for their
language, check the checkbox next to it, and more or less immediately
start programming in that language, complete with LSP integration.

VSCode has seen huge adoptation, also among free software proponents, now being the #1 most popular code-editor in the world (from not even existing 10 years ago).

I believe this aspect here is a very important reason for VSCode having reached the number of users it have.

If we were to apply similar attention to how new Emacs users get started with Emacs, it would most likely affect the amount of new Emacs-users staying around as long-term Emacs users.

A somewhat usable out-of-the-box experience is now considered a pretty fundamental requirement for most software, and not taking that into consideration is by most people considered not viable in the long term.

As far as I
know, Microsoft Office does not give the user the option of exporting
their document as an OpenOffice file, but OpenOffice does allow
exporting documents as Microsoft Office files. Microsoft Office tries to
keep people from straying from Microsoft products, while OpenOffice does
not.

Clearly somewhat off-topic, but Microsoft Office actually offers support for the OpenOffice/LibreOffice OpenDocument file-formats. Both for opening and saving.

When you start Microsoft Office for the first time you are also asked which one of these file-format families you would want to be your default.

I hope something in that ramble was helpful!
Oh certainly. You expressed yourself much more in depth and much clearer than I would, had I answered the same email.

--
Vennlig hilsen
Jostein Kjønigsen

jostein@kjonigsen.net 🍵 jostein@gmail.com 🍵 jostein@hufleslufs.no
https://jostein.kjønigsen.no
--------------7nTKIXaJtifFKmeo8Jhii6eT--