From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs packages, GitHub and software freedom Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 17:33:00 +0300 Message-ID: References: <875yka4b91.fsf@disroot.org> <87y1x62vic.fsf@rabkins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=21154ec76f1c47ada743e69619deb1f2 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31622"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.7.0-alpha0-713-g1f035dc716-fm-20220617.001-g1f035dc7 To: "Emacs Devel" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 16:34:30 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o966n-0007vQ-7g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 16:34:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52002 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o966m-000490-0p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 10:34:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44204) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o965n-0003QF-C2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0400 Original-Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:45831) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o965l-0004Jz-2B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0400 Original-Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572C35C01AC for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from imap43 ([10.202.2.93]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Jul 2022 10:33:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=batsov.dev; h=cc :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1657118004; x=1657204404; bh=qb7zknEGK2 zDyBBHkqaFgvUWqaoFVIeyQuJkKhO3Cfs=; b=srWXUMHzwNAmWQonBhuquCRpOo ZdYwS+RytoHuoTVOlHLXhIWDSGD4345S+0sedD2k4J1SfvSiykxQ6EL+tEFpiN2M YLsAYaiik2J8txYI47hFyR4AoID8076C7aKillaMmQG0c3kxfykkuMroNVMcicxm Vzi+OTfRWeOJcz4mp3e7c6Ly5VnHlwW8Sb8gBgcT3xXOijsm7XcgjYbGMuNGUoeb SXANEOs1N2J+UbB02UTPnp4E/46WxcoTskbZ4tBy7OlC2YaVXi7ZmE9noU52mdpF oAkTLPxfIRJspCx+HJkhR3n+mdDY+TmBE1RyKCYfiKumepmXHq3BGG7uqhKw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1657118004; x=1657204404; bh=qb7zknEGK2zDyBBHkqaFgvUWqaoF VIeyQuJkKhO3Cfs=; b=f4MKPULjhNZZc6eUzI2QE0ZZhJIkwT8aO4dNo/k4OcO7 fimjoDf2JplqxRSHnxOeSWlIr5KWHtiJ0Kt27ppT7IZswU7MJqDLN5rnBHsIO38p CGqNyDeg4lyMQDzkG+Dx2WitwvSURcHSdyTqZpmn71E/t58JAOBfGatJKr+cPJ05 TE6AvCAzJnaMbCJbOqP60qvlwC9BAlD9wfZO9L1RCA47W3erV3Efmtrmmw8vhBU2 Uaot9kH6FNUiPZX8R90W6RXNzwrva5TiuJHrc+SWYv8x5psubCy72eaBzEOyNHeO 2dQfNpqhF7n2BjeiDgbn/IU2500gx2Hxt5I4ZeHm5Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrudeifedgjeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeuohii hhhiuggrrhcuuegrthhsohhvfdcuoegsohiihhhiuggrrhessggrthhsohhvrdguvghvqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeuvdetfedufeevkedtteefgfetueefhfekgeejfeetfeet ueeifedtteevhfegtdenucffohhmrghinhepfhhsfhdrohhrghdpshhftghonhhsvghrvh grnhgthidrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhl fhhrohhmpegsohiihhhiuggrrhessggrthhsohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i025946a9:Fastmail Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1E8D92D40071; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:33:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <87y1x62vic.fsf@rabkins.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291904 Archived-At: --21154ec76f1c47ada743e69619deb1f2 Content-Type: text/plain I think that's a very binary view of GitHub - it might be non-free, but given the huge community it has amassed, it's almost suicidal for projects to leave it, as they'd be reducing their contributor-base significantly. Projects that are hosted outside of GitHub get way less contributions and I don't think the Emacs users would benefit from this. I know that the people in FSF care a lot about freedom, but I care more about building the best Emacs packages possible, even I have to make some ideological compromises from time to time. Love it or hate it, GitHub helped a lot for the revival of the Emacs package ecosystem. Especially when you compare this to the days of EmacsWiki and SourceForge. I wouldn't take any steps to discourage package maintainers from using it. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, at 4:58 PM, Yoni Rabkin wrote: > Akib Azmain Turja writes: > > > Recently, FSF has sent the following in the Free Software Supporter > > list:[1] > > > >> ### Give up GitHub: The time has come! > >> > >> *From June 30 by Software Freedom Conservancy* > >> > >> [Following GitHub's announcement](https://u.fsf.org/3me) of Copilot as > >> a for-profit product, Software Freedom Conservancy calls on all free > >> software developers to leave and "Give up GitHub!" The campaign page > >> lists major reasons to give up on GitHub. Conservancy says, > >> "developers have been, for too long, the proverbial frog in slowly > >> boiling water. GitHub's behavior has gotten progressively worse, and > >> we've excused, ignored, or otherwise acquiesced to cognitive > >> dissonance." Read about the initiative, join the public mailing list, > >> and learn how you can support the campaign yourself. > >> > >> * > > > > And GitHub is already listed as being a F grade software forge in "GNU > > Ethical Repository Criteria Evaluations" for atleast more than a > > year.[2] "GNU Ethical Repository Criteria" says that it's > > unacceptable.[3] > > > > But it is a matter of regret that many (about 133 out of 356 on my > > downloaded archive-contents) GNU Emacs packages on GNU ELPA (let alone > > NonGNU ELPA and MELPA) use GitHub. What steps should we take about > > them? (Kicking them out of ELPA is indeed not an option.) > > Kicking them out would be unkind. But asking that new projects going > forward use a different backend seems reasonable. That ideally should be > accompanied with a few recommendations. > > Emms has been always been hosted on Savannah (for many years now), and > it works well for us. Emms is a mid-sized Emacs package with relatively > light development work. Savannah has been a stable and reliable home > over many years. > > Personally, I don't prefer to interface life or work through a browser, > so the features, or lack thereof, of the Savannah Website never bothered > me. For Emms we use the mailing lists Savannah provides, Savannah's git > repo, and I try to keep an eye on irc for people commenting about > problems and improvements. > > As an Emacs package, yes, we have been asked by many people over the > years why we don't just use github, and I'm sure that Emms is indeed > mirrored there and therefore has been, without any of the copyright > holder's consent, been added to microsoft's mass code theft project. > > -- > "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice" > > --21154ec76f1c47ada743e69619deb1f2 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that's = a very binary view of GitHub - it might be non-free, but given the huge = community it has amassed, it's almost suicidal for projects to leave it,= as they'd be reducing their contributor-base significantly.  Proje= cts that are hosted outside of GitHub get way less contributions and I d= on't think the Emacs users would benefit from this. I know that the peop= le in FSF care a lot about freedom, but I care more about building the b= est Emacs packages possible, even I have to make some ideological compro= mises from time to time.

Love it or hate i= t, GitHub helped a lot for the revival of the Emacs package ecosystem. E= specially when you compare this to the days of EmacsWiki and SourceForge= . I wouldn't take any steps to discourage package maintainers  from= using it.

On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, at 4:58 PM,= Yoni Rabkin wrote:
Akib Azmain Turja <akib@d= isroot.org> writes:

> Recently, F= SF has sent the following in the Free Software Supporter
&= gt; list:[1]
>
>> ### Give up GitHu= b: The time has come!
>> 
>>= ; *From June 30 by Software Freedom Conservancy*
>>&= nbsp;
>> [Following GitHub's announcement](https://u.fsf.org/3me) of Copilot as
>> a for-profit product, Software Freedom Conservancy calls= on all free
>> software developers to leave and "Gi= ve up GitHub!" The campaign page
>> lists major reas= ons to give up on GitHub. Conservancy says,
>> "deve= lopers have been, for too long, the proverbial frog in slowly
<= div>>> boiling water. GitHub's behavior has gotten progressively w= orse, and
>> we've excused, ignored, or otherwise ac= quiesced to cognitive
>> dissonance." Read about the= initiative, join the public mailing list,
>> and le= arn how you can support the campaign yourself.
>>&nb= sp;
>
> And GitHub is already listed as b= eing a F grade software forge in "GNU
> Ethical Reposit= ory Criteria Evaluations" for atleast more than a
> yea= r.[2]  "GNU Ethical Repository Criteria" says that it's
> unacceptable.[3]
>
> But it is= a matter of regret that many (about 133 out of 356 on my
= > downloaded archive-contents) GNU Emacs packages on GNU ELPA (let al= one
> NonGNU ELPA and MELPA) use GitHub.  What ste= ps should we take about
> them?  (Kicking them out= of ELPA is indeed not an option.)

Kicking = them out would be unkind. But asking that new projects going
forward use a different backend seems reasonable. That ideally should= be
accompanied with a few recommendations.
=
Emms has been always been hosted on Savannah (for many ye= ars now), and
it works well for us. Emms is a mid-sized Em= acs package with relatively
light development work. Savann= ah has been a stable and reliable home
over many years.

Personally, I don't prefer to interface life = or work through a browser,
so the features, or lack thereo= f, of the Savannah Website never bothered
me. For Emms we = use the mailing lists Savannah provides, Savannah's git
re= po, and I try to keep an eye on irc for people commenting about
problems and improvements.

As an Emac= s package, yes, we have been asked by many people over the
years why we don't just use github, and I'm sure that Emms is indeed
mirrored there and therefore has been, without any of the co= pyright
holder's consent, been added to microsoft's mass c= ode theft project.

-- 
&= nbsp;  "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice"



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