From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why is there no `until' in elisp? Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:03 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <87murdu6to.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> <87lg6xgc58.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> <86294998-2c96-a1be-6a83-2e34b7fa6046@cs.ucla.edu> <87d0s86zrs.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> <5e6f544e-811f-fc0a-bc08-e77d601a4c4d@cs.ucla.edu> <87woqg5jm7.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1539815471 23477 195.159.176.226 (17 Oct 2018 22:31:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:31:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 Cc: Yuri Khan , Stefan Monnier , Emacs developers To: "Garreau, Alexandre" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 18 00:31:07 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gCuLL-0005xI-4v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 00:31:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39390 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gCuNR-0000sQ-PB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:33:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38163) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gCuNM-0000s9-BF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:33:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gCuNH-0003y0-0i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:33:12 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:53504) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gCuNG-0003wt-Nf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:33:06 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB95F161752; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id iMJna738fZTo; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE970161755; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id dlv2WOSweN9r; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1C5A161752; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECH In-Reply-To: <87woqg5jm7.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:230465 Archived-At: On 10/17/18 2:49 PM, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: > Le 17/10/2018 =C3=A0 14h35, Paul Eggert a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >> On 10/17/18 2:15 PM, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: >>> =E2=80=9Cwhile=E2=80=9D as used in natural language does *not* mean t= he same thing >> [=E2=80=A6] And the same is true for "until". > How=E2=80=99s that? In English, "until Y do X" typically means "keep checking Y while you're=20 doing X and stop the instant that Y becomes true". This means something=20 different from the proposed (until Y X), for the same reason that the=20 common meaning of "while Y do X" in English means something different=20 from (while Y X). > > I find =E2=80=9Cuntil=E2=80=9D be a lot more used in all the languages = I > know, including english. Although that might be true in other languages, it's certainly not true=20 of English. Google, for example, reports about 8 billion hits for=20 "while" but only 2 billion for "until". Admittedly Google hit counts are=20 only vaguely approximate, but still.... > > The most obvious and only implementation of `unless', I ever seen *unti= l > now* is (while (not cond) body) "unless" is something different from "until". Anyway, we're not making=20 much progress here; feel free to have the last word.