From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Confused by y-or-n-p Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:28:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <834kkcr1eo.fsf@gnu.org> <83im8qnyca.fsf@gnu.org> <83bleinmse.fsf@gnu.org> <56435592-d2d0-5fb6-977f-01e1931da835@gmx.at> <87k0t38g1z.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83czyvkts6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bleetirr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87y2hhri3n.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pn2tkfg8.fsf@gnu.org> <871rf7ippu.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83a6trg6mc.fsf@gnu.org> <87im8f951f.fsf@gnus.org> <83lfdacapo.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Gregory Heytings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16778"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (NEB 394 2020-01-19) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 04 11:29:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kwN7I-0004Da-Ng for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 11:29:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47622 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwN7H-0004QM-Px for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 05:29:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwN6W-0003UP-5K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 05:28:48 -0500 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.24]:65167) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwN6U-0001ao-Jq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Jan 2021 05:28:47 -0500 Original-Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:ghe@faeroes.freeshell.org [205.166.94.9]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 104ASg0a026576 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Mon, 4 Jan 2021 10:28:43 GMT Original-Received: (from ghe@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 104ATPRf015412; Mon, 4 Jan 2021 10:29:25 GMT In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.24; envelope-from=ghe@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262409 Archived-At: >> I am proposing a systematic way to make them less likely, by helping >> people take notice that a UI change is being proposed, so they can >> object quickly. > > In most cases, the reaction to UI changes is to complain about the > change because it's ... different. That makes for very poor arguments, > *especially* when the change is discussed without people having actually > tried it out for a while to see how it plays out in practice after the > initial "bump". > I agree with you, but I think you are missing Richard's main point: any significant UI change should either require setting a variable, or provide a way to disable the new behavior / re-enable to old behavior. Because it is always possible that, after having actually tried out a new behavior for a while, people dislike it. For example because they use Emacs in a way that was not envisioned by the developer who implemented the UI change, and that this UI change breaks their configuration, which relied on the old behavior. I can't speak for everyone, but I think one of the reasons people use and like Emacs is that it is stable. Breaking its stability unavoidably creates frictions. An simple and good example is the :extend attribute, which was added in Emacs 27. People who liked the old behavior simply had to add an ":extend t" attribute to a number of faces in their configuration, and that's all.