From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:22:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> Reply-To: Gregory Heytings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30444"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (NEB 394 2020-01-19) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Jo=E3o_T=E1vora?= , bobnewell@bobnewell.net To: Robert Pluim Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 08 17:23:47 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kQXli-0007pV-Ai for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 17:23:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54772 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQXlh-0004bt-9u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 11:23:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51412) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQXl3-00049O-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 11:23:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.24]:60682) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQXl0-0006bh-O4; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 11:23:04 -0400 Original-Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:ghe@otaku.sdf.org [205.166.94.8]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 098FMtro004903 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:22:55 GMT Original-Received: (from ghe@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 098FNGqJ022232; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:23:16 GMT In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.24; envelope-from=ghe@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/08 10:22:09 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257212 Archived-At: >> Well, that doesn't quite do what I suggest. It only finds the symbol >> in the Emacs manual (AFAICS it does not search in the Elisp manual), >> and what you find when you do this on a command is something that much >> resembles what you find in the docstring, so it doesn't look like >> useful information, it looks redundant. As I said, I think entering >> the chapter would be much more useful, as it would give the user the >> feeling that there is more information there. > > It puts you in info, where it is obvious there is more information: at > the top of the buffer it says: > > Up: Deletion and Killing > > so finding out more is easy. > I do not agree with your "obvious". It is true that there is a "Up" link at the top of the buffer, but it's not what you immediately see. Moreover, when you click on it you do not see the chapter title, you find a "Menu" with section titles. Remember that I was answering Richard's question: "Can you suggest a way to make [finding the manuals] easier for others in the future?" Two visible links in the docstring of, say, kill-buffer, to the relevant chapters of both the Emacs and Elisp manual, are easier to use than typing C-h S u M-<, followed by d m Elisp RET i kill-buffer RET u M-<. Even IMO for an experienced user.