From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:45:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> Reply-To: Gregory Heytings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17894"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (NEB 394 2020-01-19) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 15 22:48:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIHrv-0004ZP-Tg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 22:48:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53964 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIHru-0000H3-UO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:48:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37502) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIHq6-0006sp-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:46:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.24]:55580) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIHq2-0005hI-3L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:46:09 -0400 Original-Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:ghe@faeroes.freeshell.org [205.166.94.9]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 08FKk062020898 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:46:00 GMT Original-Received: (from ghe@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 08FKkAVJ028021; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:46:11 GMT In-Reply-To: <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.24; envelope-from=ghe@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 12:47:44 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255794 Archived-At: > > This is exactly the point I was putting in question: My take is that > popularity is part of a giant feedback loop, so it's *both*, a symptom > and a cause. And a (non-negligible) set of forces driving that feedback > loop are the marketing departments of big corps [1]. They wouldn't be > doing their jobs if it weren't so. > This is not clear at all IMO. When users choose to use VS Code or Atom or Emacs or ..., they choose between a number of free (as in beer) products. In such cases I tend to think that marketing plays little if any role, and that it's the quality of the product that matters. More precisely, not the absolute quality, but the quality for newcomers. As Chad wrote: "it's much easier/more intuitive to get started" or "it's quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it just-works'". > > Failing to see this leads to this over-eager "how can we change Emacs to > make it more popular" thing, instead of to a more balanced view, where > potential changes are judged against a more complete set of principles > and goals (newcomer friendliness surely being one of them!). > IMO, it's pointless to discuss whether Emacs should be changed, or how potential changes should be judged. In fact I don't understand why such discussions/debates take place: Emacs is likely the most flexible of all available editors, and can be adapted to all imaginable needs. So the only thing that should change in Emacs is that it should be made easier (even more: as easy as possible) to customize and understand for newcomers.