From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:55:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <32292E31-1603-4EF9-B772-EBD378C32F76@gmail.com> <83o8mcfjxb.fsf@gnu.org> <83een8fi2u.fsf@gnu.org> <87pn6stdc0.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8j454w.fsf@gnus.org> <878sdft6kd.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Reply-To: Gregory Heytings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-212064758-1878207360-1599921306=:18775" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5748"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (NEB 394 2020-01-19) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F_Kayaalp?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 16:56:49 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6xM-0001PE-PW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:56:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57382 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6xL-0004JF-Hz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:56:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6wi-0003Zl-RI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:56:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.24]:65470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6wg-0000m1-Ot for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:56:08 -0400 Original-Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:ghe@faeroes.freeshell.org [205.166.94.9]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 08CEtwxt025149 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:55:59 GMT Original-Received: (from ghe@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 08CEuAun002435; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:56:10 GMT In-Reply-To: <878sdft6kd.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Content-ID: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.24; envelope-from=ghe@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 05:31:13 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255366 Archived-At: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---212064758-1878207360-1599921306=:18775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-ID: >>> Someone who can=A2t spare more than three minutes to research a tool=20 >>> that they may end up using for a life time for the majority of their=20 >>> workday is IMHO not a kind of user we should strive to support. >> >> I think that's dangerously close to saying "Emacs was hard to make, so= =20 >> it should be hard to use". > > Well, that=A2s one way to read it. Another way, which is what I intend,= =20 > is that Emacs is a power tool, and some learning curve is inevitable no= =20 > matter how easy we make certain things. And overcoming that requires=20 > some effort. > There are many text editors, most of them are power tools too (not as much= =20 as Emacs of course, but this is something a new user cannot know or=20 evaluate). Other text editors do not have a learning curve to do simple=20 operations like cut, copy and paste, or to choose a color theme. I don't= =20 think it's a good thing if the first message you send to a new user is=20 "you will suffer" (or "abandon all hope, ye who enter here"). The purpose= =20 of the current discussion is only to do something to give them a feeling=20 of curiosity instead of a feeling of fear. ---212064758-1878207360-1599921306=:18775--