From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Platform independent graphical display for Emacs Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 02:30:25 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87ilvgwfor.fsf@telefonica.net> <83a6grx1o9.fsf@gnu.org> <834k6zwvi1.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7azilmu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sfujh4a2.fsf@yahoo.com> <877dbuhm6j.fsf@yahoo.com> <87tueyg5gc.fsf@yahoo.com> <83y24asbh4.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37698"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 25 01:33:19 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n0uzu-0009f6-T5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 25 Dec 2021 01:33:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58438 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0uzt-0000hG-HE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:33:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55768) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0uyb-0008Q8-DK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:31:57 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::42d] (port=37783 helo=mail-wr1-x42d.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0uyO-00078H-OU; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:31:57 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id t26so19932847wrb.4; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:31:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fdcNT6vOCa/si4rH4HpKa5+9RjV7kJbs/aJnMA7cXkg=; b=BHrnEcSf27OF06iUOFAeptJKryRtIvXBK2lZb6Q27JM4RZk6ufomivO0ceM4vR8CXl d2NOg51KCfJV8nh6aNk1T76vU3FCMMEo23CoPAJryMjyG4q/iSa7cadsvDa4rBsMjSlD PJrYaOTtb9nsK8ZHiZQ/V3bRPqWrLcNj6R+/f7s5aqoDSeiMqEEYan015S1KTxXhYnpe 2SYDObHJPIklXzBxUQYYkS8/TKymxpVLHDyYaK5OyJwBssb1fLEcXEh8rWMXvGZBd0QF s+h145izRTHtEPxrEmKl3hJapZB13X4mZOUkovDw5r6kTaCFQwapzEUR5hQ+aVDB7+dl jmpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fdcNT6vOCa/si4rH4HpKa5+9RjV7kJbs/aJnMA7cXkg=; b=ueeoYRR91MywXloUYr8A8TBm9hWC8KjPbdm3ogoPurdWj6Tfj5siVGDWuLIIRCVPYU EZhAaIg9IKMl/aqt3KvqXxIRC0tX86aywtXKPX768LaonGjsGruNoyq9JjrgzggghOMP ZAEGsCl5MiKT2S3SUFJSAVDikVvLNFeEUUXbPlj8STkM0Gk0YHwVlvD/deThN5BVA6dq cJoeCVdZb+1K0lnoMPm0Eic2ZiWe3s2Um2cBJ5tbGT8jxVT06Lg/tmm1JomDqe8Ntyti uk4mxLRZF0f7/bvOvfjhzlVPsBMNN+ZNXEm2cuVv4Ndlh67A1oYXtkWcT6GCo3zTR7BV l9+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531R5mqVq/b+22RWit0IkXCM63earNj8LozJ/ZRnCzUN6H4DjOCV eyDXDfJcC3M+KLGUi5PQUduDHYRIOM4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnV75OqHAf/OvcHUhrN3Tbkg5suKoVRtYR+O9pM9wr0CYK/Spu1E1tGfqj+WUGak2Fa4rJ6A== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:64e7:: with SMTP id g7mr5794579wri.203.1640392296848; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:31:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id az15sm8398042wmb.47.2021.12.24.16.31.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:31:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83y24asbh4.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::42d (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42d; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.133, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283171 Archived-At: On 24.12.2021 10:33, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> That said, all of this would obviously be a lot of work and until and >> unless someone starts such work this is all rather academic. > Not only that, I'd hesitate to accept such a contribution, because its > long-term maintenance would most probably be a constant burden, How it that different from a BeOS port, or a PGTK port, or etc? Where the general policy has been (I think?) that we accept such contributions as long as there interest from the author in maintaining it, and some probable interest the users. I would hate to discourage someone from taking the initiative a trying to create a better "no-toolkit" port which supports font scaling, for example. And also some existing interface details which people mentioned before (customize widgets, popups, tabs, scroll bars), which are currently not very well integrated with the existing toolkits, in a more organic way. Better performance would help, too (like child frames are faster on older ports than on GTK3 one). > and if > the person(s) who develop such a "native" toolkit go on to greener > pastures, we will be left with an unmaintained subsystem. Worst-case scenario, we'd just have to drop that "port", wouldn't we? > So I don't think it is a good idea for Emacs to develop its own > toolkit. We should use what's out there. Like some people said previously, Emacs feels similar in spirit to another popular FLOSS project: Blender. Community of professionals, keyboard-driven interface, power and customizability. Blender never used an existing GUI toolkit. And I think it looks pretty good (even though I hope it has grown a light-bg theme by now): https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/_images/editors_preferences_section_interface.png https://b3d.interplanety.org/wp-content/upload_content/2016/09/01-4.jpg Of course, the Blender community is much larger and better funded, but OTOH the number of different UI elements we'd need to support is much smaller as well. And we could tap into some existing community talent by having a lot of the UI logic implemented in Lisp. Similarly to how a number of recent web browser projects have their UIs implemented with JS+HTML.