From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eli Zaretskii" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:40:14 +0300 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <87vgal3w79.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87vgak30cw.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019504563 6235 127.0.0.1 (22 Apr 2002 19:42:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:42:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xemacs-design@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16zjhy-0001cM-00 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:42:42 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16zjip-0005Sc-00 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:43:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16zjhj-0003Pf-00; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:42:27 -0400 Original-Received: from heimdall.inter.net.il ([192.114.186.17]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16zjgG-0003MI-00 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:40:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Zaretsky ([80.230.2.40]) by heimdall.inter.net.il (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with ESMTP id BIF61118; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:40:13 +0300 (IDT) Original-To: bradym@balestra.org X-Mailer: emacs 21.2.50 (via feedmail 8 I) and Blat ver 1.8.9 In-Reply-To: (message from Brady Montz on 22 Apr 2002 09:54:09 -0700) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3050 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3050 > From: Brady Montz > Date: 22 Apr 2002 09:54:09 -0700 > > I see very little in the UI which makes these various > options obvious, and the biggest single struggle I have helping emacs > beginners is helping them learn how to find out > information. Currently, people have suggested three ways to get to > sort-paragraph from sort-lines: open sort.el (my fallback approach), > apropos, or Info-elisp-ref, and putting xrefs in the doc strings. These all (and more) are under "Help" in the menu bar. If you are saying the the menu bar is not obvious enough, then please suggest practical ways to make that more obvious. The problem with help functions is that, IMO, a user should generally request help explicitly, or make some sign that she needs help. Otherwise, if we stick the help info into her face when it is not requested, we risk ending up with the equivalent of that annoying MSWord-style paper clip. So if the menu bar is not enough, please suggest the ways Emacs should use to decide that the user needs help (and perhaps what kind of help as well). > Now, as for more xrefs in the docstring. Not good. Bad. For one thing, > they are too likely to get stale. I think documentation runs the risk of becoming stale no matter how you organize it--separate from the stuff it refers to or not. You cannot avoid the maintenance burden here. > Back to my example. So far, three people have suggested three > ways. First, not all of these ways work for every function (for > example, C-h C-f gnus just failed for me) Is "C-h C-f" supposed to show the Info node for a command you type? If so, the equivalent command works for me in Emacs with gnus. > nor for every situation > (for example, starting from a keybinding instead of a function name) "C-h K" does that for me in Emacs. > none of them are apparant from the UI Help->More Manuals->Find Key in Manual and Find Command in Manual do that in Emacs. > So, time to experiment with some code. I'd like to know any idioms > that people have for finding information. In particular, I'd like to > know the situations in which those idioms are used. It depends on what you are looking for, I think. If the goal is to find quickly a description of some subject, then a keyword-based search (a user types several keywords, and Emacs finds the appropriate documentation) is IMHO the best. The `i' command in Info gets pretty close to that (it's normally the first or second method I try when looking for things). This could be inappropriate for people who want an introduction to some broad issue, though. Another idea is to try the hierarchical approach: a user is asked a series of questions about the subject she wants to read about, which (the questions) progress from general to more and more specific, until the subject is determined and its documentation displayed. With each question, the user is given a small number (like 4) of possible responses that should narrow the search in the next stage. Some knowledge bases on the net are organized in such ways. > For example, > knowing a fair bit about emacs, I generally start with my comfortable > turf which is a known similar function, then I apropos, search the > info pages or source, or a known phrase (generally with nice emacs > terms like buffers, regions, yank, that are stirring up so much > trouble elsewhere on this thread :)), and I google search. A suggestion for a procedure that uses Emacs facilities in a certain order (derived from experience) can be found in the node "Help" of the latest Emacs user manual (shipped with Emacs 21.1).