From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Toomim Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date) Date: 20 Apr 2002 16:16:04 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <7263-Sat20Apr2002145929+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il> <87adrypnjn.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp> <3CC1C275.6090009@cs.berkeley.edu> <15553.56593.407791.923999@ice.wonderworks.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019344713 15811 127.0.0.1 (20 Apr 2002 23:18:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 23:18:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Miles Bader , Eli Zaretskii , link@pobox.com, bradym@balestra.org, xemacs-design@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16z47l-00046u-00 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:18:33 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16z4Ro-00037n-00 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:39:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16z47S-0004aU-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:18:14 -0400 Original-Received: from front2.mail.megapathdsl.net ([66.80.60.30]) by fencepost.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16z45J-0004Xr-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:16:01 -0400 Original-Received: from [216.36.77.18] (HELO [192.168.1.126]) by front2.mail.megapathdsl.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.8) with ESMTP id 27222575; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:10:03 -0700 Original-To: Kyle Jones In-Reply-To: <15553.56593.407791.923999@ice.wonderworks.com> X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0 (Preview Release) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:2888 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:2888 On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 14:26, Kyle Jones wrote: > Michael Toomim writes: > > > > The term "buffer" means nothing to a new emacs user, even if > > they thoroughly understand the dictionary definition of it. > > > > It would make much more sense to new users if they were just > > called files or documents, since that's what they are to > > newbies, and learning what a buffer is is a big hurdle one > > has to jump over when learning emacs. > > It's a hurdle that one has to jump with any editor in which you > edit a copy of a file and commit changes only by "saving" them. > If people have trouble with this concept then this is just one of > those things they will have to learn because editing a buffer is > in fact what is happening. If you don't understand the buffer > concept then you'll wonder why your edits don't take effect in > the filesystem as soon as you type them. Is their anyone using > computers today who doesn't understand the concept of an edit > buffer, even if they don't know the term "buffer"? If not, then > it's just a matter of them learning a new word. People who won't > learn a new word display a breaktaking intellectual bankruptcy > that's far beyond our ability to change. I think there's been a miscommunication here. I wasn't saying that users can't understand the concept of a "document that hasn't been saved yet". That is silly. I was just saying that the word "buffer" doesn't mean anything to new users, and that by calling their documents "buffers" they get confused. Users already understand the *concept* of a buffer just fine. The problem is that they use the word "document" for it. People have all sorts of meaning attached to the word "buffer". A buffer is: 1 : any of various devices or pieces of material for reducing shock or damage due to contact 2 : a means or device used as a cushion against the shock of fluctuations in business or financial activity 3 : something that serves as a protective barrier: as a : BUFFER STATE b : a person who shields another especially from annoying routine matters c : MEDIATOR 1 4 : a substance capable in solution of neutralizing both acids and bases and thereby maintaining the original acidity or basicity of the solution; also : a solution containing such a substance 5 : a temporary storage unit (as in a computer); especially : one that accepts information at one rate and delivers it at another Basically, it comes down to the problem that a buffer is a system-level representation -- it is a description a C/lisp data structure. People think of these things as documents (just take a look at any mainstream text editor), so it would help if they were called documents.