Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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I am the author of GNU Hyperbole, the everyday, hypertextual
information manager for GNU Emacs; Mats Lidell is the co-maintainer.
Hyperbole can boost the productivity of even experienced developers.
Hyperbole does many things but it mainly helps speed you through
working with many files and directories (whether local or remote),
using any naturally embedded structure within them as built-in
hyperlinks and allowing you to quickly hyperlink between files without
utilizing any markup language (just drag between source and referent
to create a link).  It also has a great window and frame manager for
getting your display just right.  The Hyperbole project home page
gives a more extensive description:

https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/

Hyperbole was created long ago but I have now rewritten it as a
standard Emacs package with full compatibility for Emacs 25.1 (and
backwards compatibility to Emacs 24.3).  Because so much has changed
with the latest work, we need experienced Emacs users to give it a
workout and send feedback prior to a public release, hopefully finding
any major issues before a larger number of people start using it
(probably within a month).  Although large, Hyperbole does not require
anything outside of libraries shipped with GNU Emacs itself, so it is
easy to install and test.  Since it is an Emacs package, if you decide
not to keep it, you can uninstall it, restart your Emacs and you will
be back to where you were before. If people like it, we will work
across time on making it a core part of Emacs, available whenever
desired.

Because it is not yet ready for standard release, you must download it
from our own site as described below.  The public release will be
through normal channels.  You can test it by using it during your
normal workday; you'll want to have 2-4 hours across a week to get
somewhat familiar and to allow time for testing.

Right now there are just a few users and there is no traffic on the
hyperbole-users@gnu.org mailing list, so you can join the list and
send any feedback without it generating too much mail.

https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=hyperbole

If you do not want to join the list, you can send feedback directly to
me as rsw at gnu dot org, though we would prefer it go to the list so
more people can see it.  There is also a bug-hyperbole@gnu.org list
for direct bug reports.

If you decide to test it, please send a message to the list or to me
just indicating the main parts you are testing or plan to test so we
have an idea of how many people are testing.  Thanks so much for your
help and we hope GNU Hyperbole becomes a regular part of your working
toolset across time.  You will see why we say, Hyperbole is ready for
action!

----------

To download and install the Hyperbole package, add something like the
following lines to your .emacs file:

(require 'package)
(setq package-check-signature nil
      package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
(add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages" . "
http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
(package-initialize)
(unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
  (if (not (display-graphic-p))
      ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
      ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
      (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to
install Hyperbole")
    (beep)
    (sit-for 4))
    (package-refresh-contents)
    (package-install 'hyperbole)))

Then restart Emacs and if no errors occur, the latest version of Hyperbole
will be downloaded, built and then available for use.  When it is ready,
you will see a Hyperbole menu on your menubar and {C-h h} will display a
Hyperbole menu in the minibuffer for quick keyboard-based selection.
(Just FYI, Hyperbole has used that key binding probably longer than
Emacs itself).

Read the Hyperbole Manual, "(hyperbole)Top", to learn all about it.  A
press of {M-RET} within the above double quotes will display the
manual once Hyperbole is loaded.

Use {C-h h d d} to display the Hyperbole DEMO, for a demonstration of
standard Hyperbole button capabilities.  This is the best way to
initially interactively learn about some parts of Hyperbole (the DEMO
still needs updating with some of Hyperbole's newer features).  The
Hyperbole Manual is a reference manual, not a simple introduction.  It
is provided under the man/ subdirectory in .info, .html and .pdf
formats.

Have fun.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Stefan Monnier]

Great to hear that the project is back!

Just one nitpick:

> (require 'package)
> (setq package-check-signature nil
>       package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
> (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages"
>                                  . "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
> (package-initialize)
> (unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
>   (if (not (display-graphic-p))
>       ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
>       ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
>       (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to install Hyperbole")
>     (beep)
>     (sit-for 4))
>     (package-refresh-contents)
>     (package-install 'hyperbole)))

Yuck!

There's gotta be a better way.


        Stefan

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> Great to hear that the project is back!
>

Thanks.  We would very highly value your feedback as you are always right
on topic and deep into things.

>
> Just one nitpick:
>
> > (require 'package)
> > (setq package-check-signature nil
> >       package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of
> libraries
> > (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages"
> >                                  . "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
> > (package-initialize)
> > (unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
> >   (if (not (display-graphic-p))
> >       ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
> >       ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
> >       (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to
> install Hyperbole")
> >     (beep)
> >     (sit-for 4))
> >     (package-refresh-contents)
> >     (package-install 'hyperbole)))
>
> Yuck!
>

As I was saying...:)  Yes, I dislike this too.  It is just temporary but
most of it is just to ensure people have package set up correctly.
Really, you should be able to just set an archive path and then call
package-install and the right things should happen but that is not the case
presently.

>
> There's gotta be a better way.
>

We are open to suggestions.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> wrote:


> To download and install the Hyperbole package, add something like the
> following lines to your .emacs file:
>
> (require 'package)
> (setq package-check-signature nil
>       package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
> (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages" . "
> http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
> (package-initialize)
> (unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
>   (if (not (display-graphic-p))
>       ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
>       ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
>       (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to
> install Hyperbole")
>     (beep)
>     (sit-for 4))
>     (package-refresh-contents)
>     (package-install 'hyperbole)))
>

I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:

(require 'hyperbole)

to ensure it loads in every session.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Michael Albinus]

Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Bob,

> Right now there are just a few users and there is no traffic on the
> hyperbole-users@gnu.org mailing list, so you can join the list and
> send any feedback without it generating too much mail.
>
> If you do not want to join the list, you can send feedback directly to
> me as rsw at gnu dot org, though we would prefer it go to the list so
> more people can see it.  There is also a bug-hyperbole@gnu.org list
> for direct bug reports.

Both ML do not seem to be registered at gmane.org. Could you pls
register them there? People like me prefer reading via gmane, instead of
subscribing to mailing lists.

I've added hyperbole to the list of supported packages in debbugs-gnu.

> Have fun.
>
> Bob

Best regards, Michael.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Great to hear that the project is back!
> Thanks.  We would very highly value your feedback as you are always right
> on topic and deep into things.

Is there a
Git/Hg/DaRCS/Arch/RCS/CSSC/Monotone/MetaCVS/Bazaar/Codeville/OpenCM/Fossil/...
repository somewhere?

> Really, you should be able to just set an archive path and then call
> package-install and the right things should happen but that is not the case
> presently.

I agree.  Please report it as a bug (aka feature-request)..

>> There's gotta be a better way.
> We are open to suggestions.

I think you can:

    Add

    (require 'package)
    (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages"
                                     . "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)

    to the .emacs and then do

    M-x package-refresh-contents RET
    M-x package-install RET hyperbole RET

And I think you should also be able to do:

    M-x url-handler-mode RET
    M-x package-install-from-file RET
    http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/hyperbole-<version>.tar RET

And I'd argue that we should add something like

    M-x package-install-from-archive RET
    http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe RET
    hyperbole RET


-- Stefan

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Stefan Monnier]

> I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:
> (require 'hyperbole)
> to ensure it loads in every session.

That shouldn't be needed: package.el will autoload
hyperbole-autoloads.el at every startup, so you can put there whatever
you need to setup hyperbole.


        Stefan

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/15/2016 04:09 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:
>> (require 'hyperbole)
>> to ensure it loads in every session.
>
> That shouldn't be needed: package.el will autoload
> hyperbole-autoloads.el at every startup, so you can put there whatever
> you need to setup hyperbole.

That sounds like the initialization would be better performed in a 
global minor mode (which will be autoloaded). Example: semantic-mode.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> > I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:
> > (require 'hyperbole)
> > to ensure it loads in every session.
>
> That shouldn't be needed: package.el will autoload
> hyperbole-autoloads.el at every startup, so you can put there whatever
> you need to setup hyperbole.
>

I know but when testing with 'emacs -Q' and then all the package
initialization code I tested under Emacs 25.0.04, the "hyperbole" library
was not loaded, so the Hyperbole menu invocation key binding was not
established.
Adding that line fixes it and does no harm in cases where it is not needed.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> On 06/15/2016 04:09 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
>> I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:
>>> (require 'hyperbole)
>>> to ensure it loads in every session.
>>>
>>
>> That shouldn't be needed: package.el will autoload
>> hyperbole-autoloads.el at every startup, so you can put there whatever
>> you need to setup hyperbole.
>>
>
> That sounds like the initialization would be better performed in a global
> minor mode (which will be autoloaded). Example: semantic-mode.
>

This is a good idea, so I will add it to the todo list.  It would be a lot
of work to be able to turn Hyperbole on and off with one command but
doable.  We also want to eventually add an unload command for Hyperbole as
well.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Kaushal Modi]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:06 AM Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> wrote:

>  It would be a lot of work to be able to turn Hyperbole on and off with
> one command but doable.  We also want to eventually add an unload command
> for Hyperbole as well.
>

Making a minor mode should answer all of that.

For a minor mode FOO-mode, you can define that minor to call a set of
functions when the minor is enabled and then again when disabled.

The user simply needs to do M-x FOO-mode to toggle the minor mode state
between enabled and disabled.
-- 

-- 
Kaushal Modi

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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In Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:06 AM Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>>  It would be a lot of work to be able to turn Hyperbole on and off with
>> one command but doable.  We also want to eventually add an unload command
>> for Hyperbole as well.
>>
>
> Making a minor mode should answer all of that.
>

Yes but what I was saying is that Hyperbole interfaces with many different
libraries and Emacs functions, so there are many things that would have to
be programmed to be turned on and off, so it would take some time to
develop this.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 00:32:55 -0400
> Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
>  > (require 'package)
>  > (setq package-check-signature nil
>  > package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
>  > (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages"
>  > . "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
>  > (package-initialize)
>  > (unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
>  > (if (not (display-graphic-p))
>  > ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
>  > ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
>  > (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to install Hyperbole")
>  > (beep)
>  > (sit-for 4))
>  > (package-refresh-contents)
>  > (package-install 'hyperbole)))
> 
>  Yuck!
> 
> As I was saying...:) Yes, I dislike this too. It is just temporary but most of it is just to ensure people have
> package set up correctly.
> Really, you should be able to just set an archive path and then call package-install and the right things should
> happen but that is not the case presently.
> 
>  There's gotta be a better way.
> 
> We are open to suggestions.

Why do you need that?  IOW, what doesn't work on a TTY frame?  I don't
expect to see any real problems, since in a modern Emacs version most
features "just work" on TTY frames.  Colors, menus, dialogs, mouse,
everything.  There could be some old code you have that fails because
it uses low-level or obsolescent APIs, but that's about all I'd
expect.

So please tell why you needed to enforce display-graphic-p.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Stefan Monnier]

> I know but when testing with 'emacs -Q' and then all the package
> initialization code I tested under Emacs 25.0.04, the "hyperbole" library
> was not loaded, so the Hyperbole menu invocation key binding was not
> established.
> Adding that line fixes it and does no harm in cases where it is not needed.

What I'm saying is that if that line is always needed, then add it to
hyperbole-autoloads.el rather than asking users to add it to their
.emacs


        Stefan

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Clément Pit--Claudel]

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On 2016-06-15 09:54, Robert Weiner wrote:
> Adding that line fixes it and does no harm in cases where it is not needed.

It does, doesn't it? For one thing, it will slow startup down by loading the entirety of the package, instead of just autoloading a few functions.
Or does hyperbole need to be loaded in full to work?

Clément.


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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Rasmus]

Could you add some sort of "graphical explanation" of hyperbole to the
website?  At least some screenshots, but maybe even a short(!) video demo.
It’s pretty hard for me fully appreciate what hyperbole does.

Thanks,

-- 
Hvor meget poesi tror De kommer ud af et glas isvand?

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Clément Pit--Claudel <
clement.pit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2016-06-15 09:54, Robert Weiner wrote:
> > Adding that line fixes it and does no harm in cases where it is not
> needed.
>
> It does, doesn't it? For one thing, it will slow startup down by loading
> the entirety of the package, instead of just autoloading a few functions.
> Or does hyperbole need to be loaded in full to work?
>
Some of it must be loaded not just autoloaded and that is what (require
'hyperbole) does.  It became too complex to lazily load everything at first
use as there are many different ways to invoke its features.
It does not take long to initialize, so it won't slow down initialization
much.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Could you add some sort of "graphical explanation" of hyperbole to the
> website?


There are some older screenshots in the Hyperbole Manual.  We hope to
update these this week and maybe some will make their way to the Hyperbole
home page.


>   At least some screenshots, but maybe even a short(!) video demo.
>

We would like to do a video demo but do not presently have the time.  If
someone would like to volunteer to work on that, we could interface with
you on it and send feedback.

It’s pretty hard for me fully appreciate what hyperbole does.
>

Of course Hyperbole can never be fully appreciated; that is why it is
called Hyperbole :-)  Even as its author, I still find useful capabilities
that I wrote long ago and had forgotten about.  We are expanding the
documentation which is extensive already but not complete.  {C-h h d d}
give you a demo of some quickly useful features.  {C-h i d m hyperbole RET}
lets you browse the manual with some images embedded.  Reading key parts of
this will give you a much better idea of what you can do with it.  There
are also HTML and PDF versions in the hyperbole-5.12/man/ directory.

There is also the project homepage.  If it is unclear on anything, please
let us know:

     https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/

All that said, we want to make it accessible so go explore and generate a
set of questions and then we will see how best to answer them.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Tom]

Robert Weiner <rsw <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Rasmus <rasmus <at> gmx.us> wrote:Could
you add some sort of "graphical explanation" of hyperbole to the
> 
> There is also the project homepage.  If it is unclear on anything, please
let us know

It would be useful if you could compare it to something which
people know. For example, Org mode is part of Emacs and from the
description it seems to me Hyperbole has some overlapping functionality
with Org (e.g. org also has outlining ability, it can also be a
personal information manager, can link to other files, etc.)

What are the differences?

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>
> >  > (if (not (display-graphic-p))
> >  > ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
> >  > ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
>
> Why do you need that?  IOW, what doesn't work on a TTY frame?  I don't
> expect to see any real problems, since in a modern Emacs version most
> features "just work" on TTY frames.  Colors, menus, dialogs, mouse,
> everything.  There could be some old code you have that fails because
> it uses low-level or obsolescent APIs, but that's about all I'd
> expect.
>
> So please tell why you needed to enforce display-graphic-p.
>

----
Good news with recent updates to Hyperbole, it builds just fine under a
tty-based Emacs (V25.0.94), as I just tested it.
So I will remove that conditional from the installation instructions.

Bob

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Re:Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[tumashu]

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```
Screen Control: the fastest, easiest-to-use window and frame control available for GNU Emacs. With just a few keystrokes, you can shift from increasing a window's height by 5 lines to moving a frame by 220 pixels or immediately moving it to a screen corner. Text in each window or frame may be enlarged or shrunk (zoomed) for easy viewing, plus many other features;
```


This is very like: [hydra](https://github.com/abo-abo/hydra)




At 2016-06-15 09:41:46, "Robert Weiner" <rsw@gnu.org> wrote:

I am the author of GNU Hyperbole, the everyday, hypertextual
information manager for GNU Emacs; Mats Lidell is the co-maintainer.
Hyperbole can boost the productivity of even experienced developers.
Hyperbole does many things but it mainly helps speed you through
working with many files and directories (whether local or remote),
using any naturally embedded structure within them as built-in
hyperlinks and allowing you to quickly hyperlink between files without
utilizing any markup language (just drag between source and referent
to create a link).  It also has a great window and frame manager for
getting your display just right.  The Hyperbole project home page
gives a more extensive description:

https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/

Hyperbole was created long ago but I have now rewritten it as a
standard Emacs package with full compatibility for Emacs 25.1 (and
backwards compatibility to Emacs 24.3).  Because so much has changed
with the latest work, we need experienced Emacs users to give it a
workout and send feedback prior to a public release, hopefully finding
any major issues before a larger number of people start using it
(probably within a month).  Although large, Hyperbole does not require
anything outside of libraries shipped with GNU Emacs itself, so it is
easy to install and test.  Since it is an Emacs package, if you decide
not to keep it, you can uninstall it, restart your Emacs and you will
be back to where you were before. If people like it, we will work
across time on making it a core part of Emacs, available whenever
desired.

Because it is not yet ready for standard release, you must download it
from our own site as described below.  The public release will be
through normal channels.  You can test it by using it during your
normal workday; you'll want to have 2-4 hours across a week to get
somewhat familiar and to allow time for testing.

Right now there are just a few users and there is no traffic on the
hyperbole-users@gnu.org mailing list, so you can join the list and
send any feedback without it generating too much mail.

https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=hyperbole

If you do not want to join the list, you can send feedback directly to
me as rsw at gnu dot org, though we would prefer it go to the list so
more people can see it.  There is also a bug-hyperbole@gnu.org list
for direct bug reports.

If you decide to test it, please send a message to the list or to me
just indicating the main parts you are testing or plan to test so we
have an idea of how many people are testing.  Thanks so much for your
help and we hope GNU Hyperbole becomes a regular part of your working
toolset across time.  You will see why we say, Hyperbole is ready for
action!

----------

To download and install the Hyperbole package, add something like the
following lines to your .emacs file:

(require 'package)
(setq package-check-signature nil
      package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
(add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages" . "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
(package-initialize)
(unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
  (if (not (display-graphic-p))
      ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
      ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
      (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to install Hyperbole")
    (beep)
    (sit-for 4))
    (package-refresh-contents)
    (package-install 'hyperbole)))

Then restart Emacs and if no errors occur, the latest version of Hyperbole
will be downloaded, built and then available for use.  When it is ready,
you will see a Hyperbole menu on your menubar and {C-h h} will display a
Hyperbole menu in the minibuffer for quick keyboard-based selection.
(Just FYI, Hyperbole has used that key binding probably longer than
Emacs itself).

Read the Hyperbole Manual, "(hyperbole)Top", to learn all about it.  A
press of {M-RET} within the above double quotes will display the
manual once Hyperbole is loaded.

Use {C-h h d d} to display the Hyperbole DEMO, for a demonstration of
standard Hyperbole button capabilities.  This is the best way to
initially interactively learn about some parts of Hyperbole (the DEMO
still needs updating with some of Hyperbole's newer features).  The
Hyperbole Manual is a reference manual, not a simple introduction.  It
is provided under the man/ subdirectory in .info, .html and .pdf
formats.

Have fun.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:20 AM, tumashu <tumashu@163.com> wrote:

> ```
> Screen Control: the fastest, easiest-to-use window and frame control
> available for GNU Emacs. With just a few keystrokes, you can shift from
> increasing a window's height by 5 lines to moving a frame by 220 pixels or
> immediately moving it to a screen corner. Text in each window or frame may
> be enlarged or shrunk (zoomed) for easy viewing, plus many other features;
>


> This is very like: [hydra](https://github.com/abo-abo/hydra)
>

Well, one could implement by using Hydra which simplifies handling repeats
of partial key sequences.  Right now this is not used as we try to avoid
external packages in Hyperbole so that it is easy to install and maintain
without having to manage 3rd party dependencies.  But that author does
great work as people here probably know.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[raman]

Actually Hydra is much broader than just placing windows, though
moving/placing windows can be automated away by a single Hydra as you
point out.

I've bee using Hydra for a year now and it's magical 
-- 

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/15/2016 04:41 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> To download and install the Hyperbole package, add something like the
> following lines to your .emacs file:
>
> (require 'package)
> (setq package-check-signature nil
>       package-enable-at-startup nil) ;; Prevent double loading of libraries
> (add-to-list 'package-archives '("RSW-Packages" .
> "http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") t)
> (package-initialize)
> (unless (package-installed-p 'hyperbole)
>   (if (not (display-graphic-p))
>       ;; Installation of Hyperbole requires a non-dumb terminal
>       ;; instance of Emacs, i.e. under a window system.
>       (progn (message "(Hyperbole): Run Emacs under a window system to
> install Hyperbole")
>     (beep)
>     (sit-for 4))
>     (package-refresh-contents)
>     (package-install 'hyperbole)))

This gives me

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error 
"http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/archive-contents" "Not found")
   signal(file-error ("http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/archive-contents" 
"Not found"))
   package--download-one-archive(("RSW-Packages" . 
"http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/") "archive-contents" nil)
   package--download-and-read-archives(nil)
   package-refresh-contents()

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/15/2016 09:28 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> I left off one line here that seems to be required.  At the end, add:
>
> (require 'hyperbole)
>
> to ensure it loads in every session.

After I downloaded the tar archive and installed it manually using M-x 
package-install-from-buffer, (require 'huperbole) gives me this error:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable annot-bib)
   require(hactypes)
   eval-buffer(#<buffer  *load*-696250> nil 
"/home/gutov/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-5.11/hibtypes.el" nil t)  ; Reading 
at buffer position 847
 
load-with-code-conversion("/home/gutov/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-5.11/hibtypes.el" 
"/home/gutov/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-5.11/hibtypes.el" nil t)
   require(hibtypes)
   mapc(require (hui-menu hui-mouse hypb hui hui-mini hbmap hibtypes))

Not 100% why, but possibly because the byte compiler doesn't understand 
mapc.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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You downloaded 5.11 and need to download 5.12.  5.13 is coming in the next
few days.

Bob


On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
>
> load-with-code-conversion("/home/gutov/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-5.11/hibtypes.el"
> "/home/gutov/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-5.11/hibtypes.el" nil t)
>   require(hibtypes)
>   mapc(require (hui-menu hui-mouse hypb hui hui-mini hbmap hibtypes))
>

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/19/2016 10:36 PM, Robert Weiner wrote:
> You downloaded 5.11 and need to download 5.12.  5.13 is coming in the
> next few days.

There is no 5.12 in there: http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> There is no 5.12 in there: http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/
>

My mistake.  It is there now and the package install should work as well if
you start a fresh emacs session or re-initialize packages.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/19/2016 10:53 PM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> My mistake.  It is there now and the package install should work as well
> if you start a fresh emacs session or re-initialize packages.

Thanks, the installation went well now.

Re:Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[tumashu]

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the 5.12 tar is include elc file, which should be removed

在 2016-06-20 03:53:39，"Robert Weiner" <rsw@gnu.org> 写道：



On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

There is no 5.12 in there: http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/

My mistake.  It is there now and the package install should work as well if you start a fresh emacs session or re-initialize packages.


Bob


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Re:Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[tumashu]

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hyperbole.log should be removed too

在 2016-06-20 03:53:39，"Robert Weiner" <rsw@gnu.org> 写道：



On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

There is no 5.12 in there: http://www.plasmas.biz/rswe/

My mistake.  It is there now and the package install should work as well if you start a fresh emacs session or re-initialize packages.


Bob


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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/15/2016 04:41 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> Use {C-h h d d} to display the Hyperbole DEMO, for a demonstration of
> standard Hyperbole button capabilities.

This is a trick! It's not a demo, it's a tutorial. Or maybe really a 
manual, given it touches a lot of things but doesn't get to the "here's 
what you do to get X" quickly, where X is a thing the user knows and 
realizes they might want to do.

A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the niceties 
of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form.

Some feedback:

- The buttons look like when I've seen of ACME. Neat, but didn't make me 
switch.
- This doesn't work: "To display the top-level Hyperbole menu, click the 
Action Key anywhere within this paragraph or alternatively". It asks for 
the location of TAGS file instead.
- "Grep, Occurrence, Debugger and Compiler Error Buttons, and Cscope 
Analyzer Lines" for some reason describes the normal Emacs functionality?
- "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph
and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to the 
desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

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On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> On 06/15/2016 04:41 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:
>
> Use {C-h h d d} to display the Hyperbole DEMO, for a demonstration of
>> standard Hyperbole button capabilities.
>>
>
> This is a trick! It's not a demo, it's a tutorial. Or maybe really a
> manual, given it touches a lot of things but doesn't get to the "here's
> what you do to get X" quickly, where X is a thing the user knows and
> realizes they might want to do.
>

People really like to talk abstractly here, which is fun, but doesn't help
move things forward too far when you could just as easily describe exactly
what you mean.  Did you find the demo useful or not?  Did you like that it
seemed more of a tutorial or not?  What are the things that you in
particular wanted to know how to do that the demo did not explain or touch
upon.  There is a 150 page manual with extensive cross-references for more
detail but a few more sections are yet to be written.

>
> A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the niceties
> of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form.
>

Hyperbole is highly interactive, so we want people to interact with it.  We
don't call it a tutorial because it doesn't seek to teach you how to use
Hyperbole but only to experience some of its interesting features.


>
> Some feedback:
>
> - The buttons look like when I've seen of ACME. Neat, but didn't make me
> switch.
>

I don't know want ACME is.   But what would you be switching from?  How
else can you interactively create buttons with elisp actions in Emacs?
Maybe org-mode does some of this?  Like org-mode, you need to spend more
than hour or so with Hyperbole to see what it can do for you.  Just leave
it loaded in your Emacs and experiment with it at times and read the manual
as you have time.

- This doesn't work: "To display the top-level Hyperbole menu, click the
> Action Key anywhere within this paragraph or alternatively". It asks for
> the location of TAGS file instead.
>

Yes, one of the things still to be updated is the demo which has some old
parts left to it.  This is coming soon.


> - "Grep, Occurrence, Debugger and Compiler Error Buttons, and Cscope
> Analyzer Lines" for some reason describes the normal Emacs functionality?
>

Hyperbole recognizes these anywhere and doesn't need to parse the whole
buffer, just the immediate line.


> - "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph
> and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to the
> desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions.
>

I will check.  There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed in
5.12.  You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press shift-mouse3
or vice versa to see help for the first key pressed.

Thanks for the initial feedback.

Bob

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Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/19/2016 11:58 PM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> People really like to talk abstractly here, which is fun, but doesn't
> help move things forward too far when you could just as easily describe
> exactly what you mean.

And from my side, the demo wasn't abstract enough: it described some 
things at a lower level, like press this, push that, instead of giving a 
brief overview of that all this stuff is about, and why I would want to 
push buttons. A button that computes a factorial is not particularly 
convincing, I could do that just as easily via an interactive function.

> Did you find the demo useful or not?  Did you
> like that it seemed more of a tutorial or not?

Somewhat, and no. It was overly long as a demo, it gave me a taste of 
understanding of what buttons mean in Hyperbole, but not why I would 
want to use them, as opposed to the regular tools (interactive functions 
and key bindings) that are already available in Emacs. Or maybe I was 
expecting too much.

Yes, buttons that link to an arbitrary files or directories, or that 
launch any command look neat, but it's not very obvious what kind of new 
and amazing workflows they allow, if any.

> There is a 150 page manual with extensive
> cross-references for more detail but a few more sections are yet to be
> written.

I hope you can forgive if I'm not in any hurry to spend time on that.

>     A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the
>     niceties of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form.
>
>
> Hyperbole is highly interactive, so we want people to interact with it.

"Here are lots of buttons, click on them" would be fine. Maybe ease on 
on the terminology. You can tell the user to press S-mouse-2 without 
introducing the term "Action Key", etc.

And halfway through, the buttons stop, and the "demo" starts describing 
the normal Emacs features (maybe with some minor twists). Doesn't sound 
like demo material.

> I don't know want ACME is.   But what would you be switching from?

Switching from Emacs. Acme is/was a Plan 9 editor:

http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/acme/

> How
> else can you interactively create buttons with elisp actions in Emacs?

Never really felt the urge before.

>     - "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph
>     and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to
>     the desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions.
>
>
> I will check.  There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed
> in 5.12.  You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press
> shift-mouse3 or vice versa to see help for the first key pressed.

That would be "press", not "depress", wouldn't it? Still doesn't work, 
though.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
> On 06/19/2016 11:58 PM, Robert Weiner wrote:
>
>> People really like to talk abstractly here, which is fun, but doesn't
>> help move things forward too far when you could just as easily describe
>> exactly what you mean.
>
>
> And from my side, the demo wasn't abstract enough: it described some things
> at a lower level, like press this, push that, instead of giving a brief
> overview of that all this stuff is about, and why I would want to push
> buttons.

Fair enough.  The HY-ABOUT file available on {C-h h d a} tells you
what it is all about and should
be mentioned in the HY-README file.

> A button that computes a factorial is not particularly convincing,
> I could do that just as easily via an interactive function.

True.  You probably want {C-h h d t} which lets you browse all of the
implicit button types and action types.  That shows you a lot of built
in behavior but would overwhelm most people for whom the demo is
meant.  You are definitely not a typical user (that's a compliment).

>
>> Did you find the demo useful or not?  Did you
>> like that it seemed more of a tutorial or not?
>
>
> Somewhat, and no. It was overly long as a demo, it gave me a taste of
> understanding of what buttons mean in Hyperbole, but not why I would want to
> use them, as opposed to the regular tools (interactive functions and key
> bindings) that are already available in Emacs. Or maybe I was expecting too
> much.

That is good feedback.  We will use it as we update the demo
considering all of the new capabilities in Emacs since Hyperbole was
last published.

>
> Yes, buttons that link to an arbitrary files or directories, or that launch
> any command look neat, but it's not very obvious what kind of new and
> amazing workflows they allow, if any.

That's like asking what workflow Lisp can enable.  Hyperbole is a
toolkit, like Emacs, that you mold to your needs.  It has a lot of
built-in behavior but is not limited by this.

>
>> There is a 150 page manual with extensive
>> cross-references for more detail but a few more sections are yet to be
>> written.
>
>
> I hope you can forgive if I'm not in any hurry to spend time on that.

You either want depth or a taste.  I am pointing you to more resources for both.

>
>>     A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the
>>     niceties of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form.
>>
>>
>> Hyperbole is highly interactive, so we want people to interact with it.
>
>
> "Here are lots of buttons, click on them" would be fine. Maybe ease on on
> the terminology. You can tell the user to press S-mouse-2 without
> introducing the term "Action Key", etc.

If you get into Hyperbole more, you will certainly understand why we
name that key and don't use a specific mouse button name much.

>
> And halfway through, the buttons stop, and the "demo" starts describing the
> normal Emacs features (maybe with some minor twists). Doesn't sound like
> demo material.

I'll look at that.

>
>> I don't know want ACME is.   But what would you be switching from?
>
>
> Switching from Emacs. Acme is/was a Plan 9 editor:

Why would you switch from Emacs to use Hyperbole?  They complement
each other.  And you can't be saying you were looking at switching
from Acme to Emacs with Hyperbole.

>
> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/acme/
>
>> How
>> else can you interactively create buttons with elisp actions in Emacs?
>
>
> Never really felt the urge before.

In part because you couldn't maybe.  I guess people didn't create many
hyperbuttons before the web either but look at them now.
Yet, that is still a hard process.  With Hyperbole, it is easy.

>
>>     - "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph
>>     and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to
>>     the desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions.
>>
>>
>> I will check.  There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed
>> in 5.12.  You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press
>> shift-mouse3 or vice versa to see help for the first key pressed.
>
>
> That would be "press", not "depress", wouldn't it? Still doesn't work,
> though.

Send us your system specifics so we can possibly replicate the
problem.  With Hyperbole, you can do this with {C-h h m c}.

Bob

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/20/2016 01:20 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:

> Fair enough.  The HY-ABOUT file available on {C-h h d a} tells you
> what it is all about and should
> be mentioned in the HY-README file.

Thanks, that's a better read for that purpose.

>> A button that computes a factorial is not particularly convincing,
>> I could do that just as easily via an interactive function.
>
> True.  You probably want {C-h h d t} which lets you browse all of the
> implicit button types and action types.

Rather than a long list of things that are possible, I would prefer to 
see two or three things that are most impressive. Or four.

> That's like asking what workflow Lisp can enable.  Hyperbole is a
> toolkit, like Emacs, that you mold to your needs.  It has a lot of
> built-in behavior but is not limited by this.

Right, but a system that allows you to do anything often doesn't help 
you do anything in particular. That's a problem, both for new users and 
for advocates.

> If you get into Hyperbole more, you will certainly understand why we
> name that key and don't use a specific mouse button name much.

Probably, but I meant that introducing new terms in a demo might be 
premature.

> Send us your system specifics so we can possibly replicate the
> problem.  With Hyperbole, you can do this with {C-h h m c}.

Hopefully that does it:

Editor: GNU Emacs 25.0.95.2 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.18.9)

         Hyperbole:   05.12
         Sys Type:    x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
         OS Type:     gnu/linux
         Window Sys:  x

Although I'm not starting with bare Emacs, but rather with my own 
customized configuration.

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[jpff]

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Even more a problem for those of us who only have 2 buttons and emultate 
button 2 with a cord, or have i misunderstood?


On Sun, 19 Jun 2016, Robert Weiner wrote:

> I will check.  There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed in
> 5.12.  You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press shift-mouse3 or
> vice versa to see help for the first key pressed.
> 
> Thanks for the initial feedback.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:48 AM, jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> wrote:
> Even more a problem for those of us who only have 2 buttons and emultate
> button 2 with a cord, or have i misunderstood?

There is support in the hmouse-sh.el for some systems with 2-button
mice, such as the old NeXT systems, so you could adapt that
for your needs or explain to us the window system and system type you
use and how it always uses a two-button mouse and we might add support
for it.

Bob

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Robert Weiner]

On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
> On 06/20/2016 01:20 AM, Robert Weiner wrote:
>
>> Fair enough.  The HY-ABOUT file available on {C-h h d a} tells you
>> what it is all about and should
>> be mentioned in the HY-README file.
>
>
> Thanks, that's a better read for that purpose.

We are also working on a quick list of items of why people might want
to use Hyperbole.  The beginning of this is found in the HY-WHY.kotl
file in your hyperb:dir directory.  We welcome ideas for this list.

>> True.  You probably want {C-h h d t} which lets you browse all of the
>> implicit button types and action types.
>
>
> Rather than a long list of things that are possible, I would prefer to see
> two or three things that are most impressive. Or four.

See if you can find one and tell us what it is.  Everyone will find
different things of use.  Look at the User Quotes section from past
users in the HY-README file and you will see what other people have
found impressive.

>> That's like asking what workflow Lisp can enable.  Hyperbole is a
>> toolkit, like Emacs, that you mold to your needs.  It has a lot of
>> built-in behavior but is not limited by this.
>
>
> Right, but a system that allows you to do anything often doesn't help you do
> anything in particular. That's a problem, both for new users and for
> advocates.

We are open to suggestions for how to make Hyperbole even more
approachable.  I think we have done a lot more than most other
packages to explain all sorts of things to both new and experienced
users.  Maybe what is needed is a sequence of what to look at in what
order or maybe you have suggestions for the readme file where it
points you to various documents and how that could be improved.

>
>> If you get into Hyperbole more, you will certainly understand why we
>> name that key and don't use a specific mouse button name much.
>
>
> Probably, but I meant that introducing new terms in a demo might be
> premature.

I see your point.  I think the demo is aimed at people that know they
have an interest in Hyperbole and what to try it out, not for people
who just want to investigate whether or not to use it.  The other
documents I have pointed you to should serve that purpose.   We know
there is a need for a video demo as well but don't have anyone with
time to make it yet.

>
>> Send us your system specifics so we can possibly replicate the
>> problem.  With Hyperbole, you can do this with {C-h h m c}.
>
>
> Hopefully that does it:
>
> Editor: GNU Emacs 25.0.95.2 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.18.9)
>
>         Hyperbole:   05.12
>         Sys Type:    x86_64-pc-linux-gnu
>         OS Type:     gnu/linux
>         Window Sys:  x
>
> Although I'm not starting with bare Emacs, but rather with my own customized
> configuration.

See if you can send a backtrace of any error you get or at least the
message, so we can understand better.

Bob

Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 06/20/2016 05:43 PM, Robert Weiner wrote:

>> Rather than a long list of things that are possible, I would prefer to see
>> two or three things that are most impressive. Or four.
>
> See if you can find one and tell us what it is.

Maybe someday.

> See if you can send a backtrace of any error you get or at least the
> message, so we can understand better.

No errors, it just asks me to visit a tags table (which I usually 
dismiss). This is what happens when I do the sequence of clicks on most 
of the words in that paragraph.

But if I do that on `the' or `pop', I get this buffer, which is probably 
the expected effect:

"A click of the Assist Key
WHEN  (and (smart-lisp-mode-p) (smart-lisp-at-tag-p))
CALLS (smart-lisp (quote show-doc)) WHICH:

Jumps to the definition..."