From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>
Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org,
drew.adams@oracle.com, juri@linkov.net
Subject: RE: Recentish C-s M-y change
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 11:10:51 -0800 (PST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <a46e4f69-47ab-4823-950d-38adb0120cdd@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <<83wnwwg8iu.fsf@gnu.org>>
> > More and more (my impression), things, even major
> > things, are getting changed through just bug reports.
> > Dunno whether that's intentionally to avoid wider
> > discussion, but it has that effect.
> >
> > I share that impression as well, it does seems that the modus operandi
> > is to change first, discuss later.
>
> I think this impression might be skewed. Many people feel the
> opposite: that we discuss too much, and moreover, that starting a
> discussion on emacs-devel almost invariably leads to stalemate that
> blocks the proposed changes.
Sounds to me like you're rather confirming my
impression - just expressing (skewing?) it a bit
differently.
Someone who wants to make a change and not risk
discussion that involves actually _proposing_ the
change, and that might lead to the change ultimately
not being agreed to, may decide to do an end-run, by
"fixing" a "bug" instead.
We all know here that discussion on emacs-devel does
NOT "invariably" lead to stalemate that blocks changes.
There can in fact be no "stalemate", because we have
a decider - you. Instead of stalemate, end-runners
might avoid a wider discussion that ends with your
decision to "block" the change. (A decision I'm
often in agreement with, FWIW.)
> If someone wants to be intimately involved in the Emacs development,
> he or she should subscribe to the bug list, because many issues are
> discussed there (as they should be), and sometimes the conclusion is
> that we should make changes.
Of course. Issues. And even new feature requests.
But as mentioned, lately there have been some
pretty _big_ changes made that way.
It's a judgment call whether something should be
discussed in a bug thread or on emacs-devel.
My impression (and it's only that), is that more
and more some are choosing to do the former -
perhaps, as you suggest, to avoid a wider or longer
discussion, which might involve greater risk of
counter-arguments or push-back.
> It is impractical to expect that every potentially
> annoying or problematic change will be detected
> before it is committed, so I urge people not to
> develop such unrealistic expectations.
I don't think anyone has such expectations. This
isn't a black-&-white thing. It doesn't help much,
I think, to hypothesize expectations of "every"
this or that.
next parent reply other threads:[~2021-01-01 19:10 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 101+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <<<87r1na4tyu.fsf@gnus.org>
[not found] ` <<<87tus6tj7s.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<<87a6txigm1.fsf@gnus.org>
[not found] ` <<<874kk5lzew.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<<m2sg7o8nq3.fsf@fastmail.fm>
[not found] ` <<<87eej8ifll.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<<X+wLPA/Q8TwWYjM5@protected.rcdrun.com>
[not found] ` <<<87h7o3k5b5.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<<E1kuqup-0001Ly-18@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<<E1kuvRe-00051d-SB@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<fed43c20-1c46-4cc9-b02a-b9f48f10c035@default>
[not found] ` <<E1kvIOG-00011a-4w@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<83wnwwg8iu.fsf@gnu.org>
2021-01-01 19:10 ` Drew Adams [this message]
[not found] <<87r1na4tyu.fsf@gnus.org>
[not found] ` <<87tus6tj7s.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<87a6txigm1.fsf@gnus.org>
[not found] ` <<874kk5lzew.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<m2sg7o8nq3.fsf@fastmail.fm>
[not found] ` <<87eej8ifll.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<X+wLPA/Q8TwWYjM5@protected.rcdrun.com>
[not found] ` <<87h7o3k5b5.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
[not found] ` <<E1kuqup-0001Ly-18@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<E1kuvRe-00051d-SB@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-12-31 16:54 ` Recentish C-s M-y change Drew Adams
2020-12-31 17:18 ` Filipp Gunbin
2021-01-01 11:14 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-01-01 12:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-02 5:34 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02 7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-03 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03 15:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 5:17 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 17:44 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-04 18:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 18:22 ` Drew Adams
2021-01-03 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03 15:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-01 22:47 ` chad
[not found] ` <<83v9cigiaa.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<E1kv065-0004mD-6v@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<83k0sygc73.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-12-31 17:02 ` Drew Adams
2020-12-28 1:09 Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-12-28 8:45 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-28 17:19 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-28 17:30 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-28 17:50 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-12-29 6:05 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-29 0:46 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-12-29 9:34 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-29 17:25 ` Drew Adams
2020-12-30 4:57 ` Jean Louis
2020-12-30 5:26 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-31 15:28 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-01 7:21 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-01 9:15 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-02 5:35 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02 9:03 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-02 9:27 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-01-02 11:55 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-03 5:58 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 0:04 ` Drew Adams
2021-01-05 6:28 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-05 16:30 ` Drew Adams
2021-01-06 5:14 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 9:41 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-08 6:17 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 9:23 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-05 6:44 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 0:13 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-07 7:39 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-01 19:12 ` Drew Adams
2020-12-29 18:35 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-29 19:20 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-30 2:45 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-12-30 5:08 ` Jean Louis
2020-12-30 9:32 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-30 10:08 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-12-30 11:13 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-12-30 15:12 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-31 15:18 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-12-31 17:09 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-31 19:09 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 17:50 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-04 18:22 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-13 18:19 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-13 19:34 ` Filipp Gunbin
2021-01-14 8:44 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-14 15:34 ` Filipp Gunbin
2021-01-27 22:01 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-01-28 8:58 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-30 5:54 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-30 10:12 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-02-02 5:36 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-30 10:42 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-01-30 18:37 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-31 5:54 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-31 15:29 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-01 7:21 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-01 8:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-02 5:28 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02 7:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-30 15:08 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-30 17:32 ` Drew Adams
2020-12-31 5:54 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-31 10:44 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-12-31 11:18 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-12-31 11:29 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-01-01 10:53 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-01 11:14 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-01-01 12:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-01 12:41 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-12-31 14:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-31 15:42 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-12-31 16:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-01 7:20 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-31 15:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-12-31 15:29 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-12-30 15:05 ` Filipp Gunbin
2020-12-30 5:04 ` Jean Louis
2020-12-29 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-29 6:14 ` Drew Adams
2020-12-30 9:33 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-31 5:54 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-29 5:56 ` Richard Stallman
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