From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: << <83tw12cocz.fsf@gnu.org> <83wp5xat6i.fsf@gnu.org> <2d035e42-006b-e76e-2b3f-75f2dfd87bb7@taydin.org> <58ac4c14-3f26-4b21-806a-aa2326ce3d2b@default> <98f114b6-191e-43f9-b505-9362b9382508@default>> <<83fucg99cj.fsf@gnu.org>> > <<83bmn496js.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503599891 11251 195.159.176.226 (24 Aug 2017 18:38:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:38:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: radon.neon@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 24 20:38:04 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dkx0y-0002HD-3l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 20:38:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49917 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkx13-0001xp-9R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:38:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41055) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwzN-0001BL-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:36:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwzM-0004Tk-1v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:36:21 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:48827) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dkwzH-0004Ql-En; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:36:15 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v7OIaCjD022392 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:36:12 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7OIaCTx024568 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:36:12 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7OIaBFH014925; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:36:11 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83bmn496js.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6774.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217783 Archived-At: > > > I don't really understand what this argument is about. The call to > > > package-initialize does nothing at all, unless you installed some > > > packages with package.el. So it is still an opt-in feature, because > > > the user must decide to install packages for it to do anything. > > > > Deciding to "install" a package is somewhat analogous to putting > > a library in your `load-path'. >=20 > So that's the flaw in your reasoning: these two are NOT analogous. A > user who installs a package using package.el does mean to use it. > That's what package.el installation does, that's what it is for. >=20 > If one only wants to have the package somewhere on load-path, they > shouldn't use package.el, but instead just download the files, or > clone the Git repository, and then add the directory to load-path. >=20 > > That doesn't mean it gets loaded. >=20 > Actually, it does. Does it load the files of the package, or just process its autoloads, so that using an autoload function etc. then loads the package? > > Activating a package (`package-initialize') is somewhat analogous > > to loading a library. >=20 > No, it isn't. How about analogous to processing autoload cookies? > > Just because a user has installed a package, it doesn't follow > > that s?he wants to always and immediately initialize that package > > for each Emacs session. >=20 > Yes, it does mean exactly that. Too bad, if so. A user should, I think, be able to hit a key to download a package and have it _available_ to be used, without necessarily loading its files in each Emacs session. S?he should then be able to load it (whether explicitly or by using and autoloaded function) or not. > There are ways to disable an installed package after the installation, > but the default is to make it available when Emacs starts. >=20 > So you have some very different use case in mind, not the one we are > talking about here.