From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 20:37:04 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5u56atj.fsf@gmail.com> <875y4t69vq.fsf@gmail.com> <90ac490a-1d95-4704-b4f8-908b16861aec@app.fastmail.com> <87fs3v44wa.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=4192b61f48f54674a3b60cfcbad94b85 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6897"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: "Danny Freeman" , "Eli Zaretskii" , "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , "Emacs Devel" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 03 20:38:27 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcrzO-0001YZ-0c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Sun, 3 Sep 2023 14:37:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <87fs3v44wa.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.29; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310018 Archived-At: --4192b61f48f54674a3b60cfcbad94b85 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Danny has already said he would revisit the matter, so I wouldn't speak > for him. Of course, if the answer is still no, then something else wi= ll > eventually come into Emacs. I'll leave him to speak for himself, but we've been collaborating a bit = since the beginning and I've always intended that eventually clojure-ts-= mode will become clojure-mode. (see https://metaredux.com/posts/2023/03/= 12/clojure-mode-meets-tree-sitter.html)=20 > As far as I could see, Danny's clojure-ts-mode at the moment is little > more than a basic Lisp editing mode build on top of tree sitter. Not > much more than what Philip suggested earlier and I implemented. Namely > it's got no CIDER integration. At a certain point, someone will have = to > make changes to CIDER to support it as well, so it's a good oppornity = to > decouple things and that will be good for whatever Clojure mode in Ema= cs CIDER will support clojure-ts-mode - that's another things we've discuss= ed with Danny. The work required is not particularly complicated, althou= gh a few of the features would be hard to implement in terms of tree-sit= ter, so we might need to keep around the "legacy" clojure-mode in some f= orm down the road.=20 > If integrating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fret > about it. You don't have to help if you don't want to. I have decent > past experience of dealing with such RPC-based systems (SLIME SLY and > Eglot) and they're really not as transcendental as you make them sound. > In the horizon there are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter > Protocol) that Emacs will probably want to support in the future. By all means - go and re-create CIDER as well, oh all mighty Wizard of t= he RPC! :-) Yeah, I'm totally making shit up just to sound important and= you've exposed me to the world! Shame on me! The core evaluation functionality in CIDER is trivial and I have no doub= t that anyone who's determined can re-create it. CIDER was already forke= d once and kind of rewritten once with a different eval backend. Both pr= ojects didn't get very far, but they say that 3rd time is the charm!=20 > And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Certified Clojure Programmer to > want to help out, just as I don't speak 90% of the languages Eglot > supports, for example and I still try them out for time to time. Another snarky unwarranted remark, but whatever. Clearly you don't want = us to have a civil conversation.=20 > If I went by instinct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd > say it really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode in Emacs > at all costs. But look, no one is coming for your life's work, really, > noone is trying to beat you, best you or take away your Clojure street > cred that you keep boasting about. So cool down and enjoy your holida= y. Another brilliant insight! I really wonder how the f**k you come up with= those accusations??? If you think that my self-esteem in life comes fro= m work on Emacs packages - I have to break it to you, but it doesn't. I = get "endless satisfaction" from wasting my spare time on random projects= for free, so I can be attacked by people like you on mailing lists, rig= ht? Hell, yeah!!! One a less bitter note - I've welcomed Danny's idea to start work on a r= eplacement for clojure-mode and I believe I've been supportive of his wo= rk every step of the way (Danny can, of course, confirm this for himself= ). I've already shared earlier in this message the rough plan for how cl= ojure-mode and clojure-ts-mode should evolve in the next couple of years= . I'm juggling more projects that I have time for and the only reason I = got involved in clojure-mode is that there was no one else willing to do= the work that was required. And you dare accuse me of pumping my ego by= clinging to its "ownership"? I can assure that I have a lot more import= ant things in my life.=20 P.S. You were just boasting about your street cred yourself, which I do = find is kind of ironic in a conversation like this one. Are trying to so= lve problems here or measure our street cred? (or something else?) Anyways, I can be snarky and aggressive myself. I'm not a particularly c= alm person and I totally don't tolerate when people try to pin their cra= zy unsubstantiated claims on me. I'll urge once again to abstain from pe= rsonal attacks if you expect me to take you seriously.=20 On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: >=20 > > And I'm astonished how you can't take "no" as an answer. Once someone > > makes the case for serious benefits of including something in > > ELPA/core we'd strongly consider this, but everything that was > > discussed so far is just extremely subjective. >=20 > Danny has already said he would revisit the matter, so I wouldn't speak > for him. Of course, if the answer is still no, then something else wi= ll > eventually come into Emacs. >=20 > As far as I could see, Danny's clojure-ts-mode at the moment is little > more than a basic Lisp editing mode build on top of tree sitter. Not > much more than what Philip suggested earlier and I implemented. Namely > it's got no CIDER integration. At a certain point, someone will have = to > make changes to CIDER to support it as well, so it's a good oppornity = to > decouple things and that will be good for whatever Clojure mode in Ema= cs >=20 > If integrating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fret > about it. You don't have to help if you don't want to. I have decent > past experience of dealing with such RPC-based systems (SLIME SLY and > Eglot) and they're really not as transcendental as you make them sound. > In the horizon there are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter > Protocol) that Emacs will probably want to support in the future. >=20 > And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Certified Clojure Programmer to > want to help out, just as I don't speak 90% of the languages Eglot > supports, for example and I still try them out for time to time. >=20 > If I went by instinct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd > say it really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode in Emacs > at all costs. But look, no one is coming for your life's work, really, > noone is trying to beat you, best you or take away your Clojure street > cred that you keep boasting about. So cool down and enjoy your holida= y. >=20 > Jo=C3=A3o >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --4192b61f48f54674a3b60cfcbad94b85 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danny has already said he would revisit = the matter, so I wouldn't speak
for him.  Of course, = if the answer is still no, then something else will
eventu= ally come into Emacs.

I'll lea= ve him to speak for himself, but we've been collaborating a bit since th= e beginning and I've always intended that eventually clojure-ts-mode wil= l become clojure-mode. (see https://metaredux.com/posts/2= 023/03/12/clojure-mode-meets-tree-sitter.html)

As far as I coul= d see, Danny's clojure-ts-mode at the moment is little
mor= e than a basic Lisp editing mode build on top of tree sitter.  Not<= br>
much more than what Philip suggested earlier and I impleme= nted.  Namely
it's got no CIDER integration.  At= a certain point, someone will have to
make changes to CID= ER to support it as well, so it's a good oppornity to
deco= uple things and that will be good for whatever Clojure mode in Emacs
=

CIDER will support clojure-ts-mod= e - that's another things we've discussed with Danny. The work required = is not particularly complicated, although a few of the features would be= hard to implement in terms of tree-sitter, so we might need to keep aro= und the "legacy" clojure-mode in some form down the road.

If integr= ating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fret
<= div>about it.  You don't have to help if you don't want to.  I= have decent
past experience of dealing with such RPC-base= d systems (SLIME SLY and
Eglot) and they're really not as = transcendental as you make them sound.
In the horizon ther= e are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter
Protocol)= that Emacs will probably want to support in the future.

By all means - go and re-create CIDER as well= , oh all mighty Wizard of the RPC! :-) Yeah, I'm totally making shit up = just to sound important and you've exposed me to the world! Shame on me!=

The core evaluation functionality in CIDER= is trivial and I have no doubt that anyone who's determined can re-crea= te it. CIDER was already forked once and kind of rewritten once with a d= ifferent eval backend. Both projects didn't get very far, but they say t= hat 3rd time is the charm!

And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Ce= rtified Clojure Programmer to
want to help out, just as I = don't speak 90% of the languages Eglot
supports, for examp= le and I still try them out for time to time.

Another snarky unwarranted remark, but whatever. Clearly= you don't want us to have a civil conversation.

If I went by insti= nct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd
say it= really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode in Emacs
at all costs.  But look, no one is coming for your life's w= ork, really,
noone is trying to beat you, best you or take= away your Clojure street
cred that you keep boasting abou= t.  So cool down and enjoy your holiday.

Another brilliant insight! I really wonder how the f**k = you come up with those accusations??? If you think that my self-esteem i= n life comes from work on Emacs packages - I have to break it to you, bu= t it doesn't. I get "endless satisfaction" from wasting my spare time on= random projects for free, so I can be attacked by people like you on ma= iling lists, right? Hell, yeah!!!

One a les= s bitter note - I've welcomed Danny's idea to start work on a replacemen= t for clojure-mode and I believe I've been supportive of his work every = step of the way (Danny can, of course, confirm this for himself). I've a= lready shared earlier in this message the rough plan for how clojure-mod= e and clojure-ts-mode should evolve in the next couple of years. I'm jug= gling more projects that I have time for and the only reason I got invol= ved in clojure-mode is that there was no one else willing to do the work= that was required. And you dare accuse me of pumping my ego by clinging= to its "ownership"? I can assure that I have a lot more important thing= s in my life.

P.S. You were just boasting = about your street cred yourself, which I do find is kind of ironic in a = conversation like this one. Are trying to solve problems here or measure= our street cred? (or something else?)

Anyw= ays, I can be snarky and aggressive myself. I'm not a particularly calm = person and I totally don't tolerate when people try to pin their crazy u= nsubstantiated claims on me. I'll urge once again to abstain from person= al attacks if you expect me to take you seriously.

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote:
"Bozhidar Ba= tsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev= > writes:

> And I'm astonished how yo= u can't take "no" as an answer. Once someone
> makes th= e case for serious benefits of including something in
>= ELPA/core we'd strongly consider this, but everything that was
> discussed so far is just extremely subjective.
=
Danny has already said he would revisit the matter, so I = wouldn't speak
for him.  Of course, if the answer is = still no, then something else will
eventually come into Em= acs.

As far as I could see, Danny's clojure= -ts-mode at the moment is little
more than a basic Lisp ed= iting mode build on top of tree sitter.  Not
much mor= e than what Philip suggested earlier and I implemented.  Namely
=
it's got no CIDER integration.  At a certain point, some= one will have to
make changes to CIDER to support it as we= ll, so it's a good oppornity to
decouple things and that w= ill be good for whatever Clojure mode in Emacs

<= div>If integrating a new major mode with CIDER is so difficult, don't fr= et
about it.  You don't have to help if you don't wan= t to.  I have decent
past experience of dealing with = such RPC-based systems (SLIME SLY and
Eglot) and they're r= eally not as transcendental as you make them sound.
In the= horizon there are other things such as DAP (Debugger Adapter
<= div>Protocol) that Emacs will probably want to support in the future.

And no, I don't have to be A Bozhidar-Certifi= ed Clojure Programmer to
want to help out, just as I don't= speak 90% of the languages Eglot
supports, for example an= d I still try them out for time to time.

If= I went by instinct or "the gist" of what you seem to be saying I'd
<= /div>
say it really sounds like you want to avoid a new Clojure mode= in Emacs
at all costs.  But look, no one is coming f= or your life's work, really,
noone is trying to beat you, = best you or take away your Clojure street
cred that you ke= ep boasting about.  So cool down and enjoy your holiday.
<= div>
Jo=C3=A3o







--4192b61f48f54674a3b60cfcbad94b85--