Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove

[Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>]

Hello, Daniel.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 08:57:36 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote:


> On June 23, 2024 8:05:22 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> >On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 07:14:25 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote:
> >> On June 23, 2024 6:05:13 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> >> >On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 15:39:09 -0500, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> >> >> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> >> >> > A few years ago, Daniel suggested:
> >> >> >> Likewise, for windmove, we can bind C-x 4 {left, right, up, down} and DWIM
> >> >> >> for people automatically, enabled by default.

> >> >> > AFAICT we still don't actually provide any keybindings for the windmove
> >> >> > commands by default.  Did I miss a controversy about that, or did it
> >> >> > just fall through the cracks?

> >> >> FWIW, I don't remember any controversy either, so my guess is that it
> >> >> just fell through the cracks.

> >> >I would be against using C-x 4 <arrow keys> or C-x 5 <arrow-keys> for
> >> >windmove (or anything else) by default.  Key sequences with arrow keys
> >> >are too few, and too precious, to use for anything not critically
> >> >important.

> >> >windmove is not critically important.  Either it isn't used at all by a
> >> >user (likely most users), or it is used all the time (by a small number
> >> >of users).  In the latter case, the user will already have bound the
> >> >commands to key sequences, since they are not useful called from M-x.

> >> >It wasn't so long ago that we were removing default key bindings so as
> >> >to free them up for other uses.  I don't think there's any reason to
> >> >reverse that policy for windmove.  It just isn't important enough.

> >> >There will be users who've bound these key bindings for their own uses.
> >> >Let's not mess these users around.

> >> The arrow keys don't have any meaning after C-x 4 today, and the
> >> meaning I've been wanting to give them is useful and logical.

> >It's useful to you, personally.  It wouldn't be useful to me.

> >> I've been using the arrow key setup for years locally and it works very
> >> well. It really does make window management much less annoying, and
> >> it's not like we're going to use the arrow keys for anything else under
> >> C-x 4.

> >You've been using C-x 4 <arrow key> for your purposes, and other users
> >will be using them for their purposes, likely to be different from yours.

> So? Nobody is preventing those users doing what they want with their
> key bindings.  You're making a general purpose argument against having
> default key bindings at all. Why don't we just ship Emacs with an empty
> global keymap so we're not imposing on anyone?

That isn't a nuanced reasoned argument any more than it was the first
time you made it (which I snipped).  It's barely worth replying to.

What I'm saying is that IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE binding those particular
keys to these commands is not a good idea.

[ .... ]

> >> But that aside, even if windmove is sparsely used today, might that be
> >> because it's inconvenient to use without bindings?

> >It might, but it's unlikely.  Even C-x 4 <up> would be inconvenient for
> >me.  I have other-window bound to <f12> and rarely have more than three
> >or four windows in a frame.  I'd hit <f12> two or three times rather
> >going through the rigmarole of C-x 4 <up>.

> So? How does providing default windmove bindings make your life worse?

It clutters up the keymap with rarely[*] used commands, leaving fewer
bindings available to the user.
[*] That's "rarely" as in "very few users" even though each of these no
doubt uses the commands a lot.

> >As I said, C-x 4 <arrow keys> are convenient to you for windmove
> >commands.  They'll be convenient to other users for other commands in
> >just the same way.  You're proposing imposing your setup on everybody.
> >I'm against this.

> They're not convenient for anyone if left unbound. 

This is convenient for anybody who, like you, has already bound these
keys to commands, and to users who are looking for key sequences for
their new commands.

There are lots of things in Emacs which seemed like good ideas at the
time, but never really took off and became popular.  windmove seems to be
one of these.  I have some similarly useful commands in my .emacs without
which I could hardly use Emacs, but which I don't try to impose on
other users.  We shouldn't be filling up unused key bindings with such
commands.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).