From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gavin Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 19:33:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5piu1y3.fsf@gnu.org> <3BA42BAC-B6D2-4531-BDC2-D8037E7038F7@traductaire-libre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3919"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas , Vincent =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bela=EFche?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 06 20:33:45 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rMCQS-0000p6-OE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 20:33:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rMCQ3-0004ar-7V; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 14:33:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rMCPw-0004aa-IH; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 14:33:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rMCPs-0000Yl-AX; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 14:33:11 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40d89446895so3403635e9.0; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 11:33:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704569585; x=1705174385; darn=gnu.org; h=in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:date:from:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=A53QJ+qjI3Lcw+7IYjidVDqWyztuc8bE+n6RrO0TRC4=; b=lGXiD2TCXGaEMyQQ+t4a1q9wGS/JchLkU0ylFwlWDlECAKlvVi6TswdJV1/510eqBS VH0MXtR9YvwaxHcelkbJRsOYlstlz1mQGimp8F5Gv31YqRwUTTVbkwBSrdz6ry+8fsju QcIUgI+cCZ7c/hTKWpxRzZBAwTcGQsuoKtPru5fUAvC8PLIwGCeJ2UXObvIYAZCylhmi WD45gjVIduIKJ9y209VPNXKctA48qK7GKLkmSoqsJQbgBu9+MDD5qWplN3fm6YOo6SEX z74dq9GH6UBF0tvFv6sLTEuFKXSyzsM3wfp7KUaBQOEb8sA3RTzByVQEUqOlCrE4NP+H 99Yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704569585; x=1705174385; h=in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:date:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=A53QJ+qjI3Lcw+7IYjidVDqWyztuc8bE+n6RrO0TRC4=; b=duK8yNryl/xiKRvCBjn/X44pd9Wn9U09K5IBm05qjy+lqqMnUPLYyfQSQpcgB5ywWX RI6InI7Hi3CBOTQMlC99j5AO16+awXaVHDsHAQ2UUTthL/uQXw6+A9nIxRwhTDVYCdqb YQE8oWV+5YjtaP82KIin49Ey0io78ToLax/TOXZoMUBpYEvPvX+KN704WalcyT1xti+2 fYZPz6dTL9B4A0pNfvCTvdaNxOex/5FCL2KFZy1qnKOsJKpLzICBMlanYOXiIIrNAkQx mei90dTwT5oqcDoVOMQKVrwgHWVXLiqD+5rg+Rs90yr/3yLoR1YjQjuzxkvoJWBZhm5g JeQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxNmaCjspC0tQWPGf3XWxbBEeEAhp+ykSy5EB6gWPBwXPcJBTrS r0UnamMvl3NzRO86SXGxQO0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFBcRapszfwCQqq1iBPXlT8T+4ZOkZUEpky8pnNFnazmnHyuTxb9vwoJBKIy2G6iM3DbqpQEw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1990:b0:40e:3b61:23ca with SMTP id t16-20020a05600c199000b0040e3b6123camr657103wmq.96.1704569584949; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 11:33:04 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost ([2a02:c7f:c29:b00:cd5c:ff9c:7813:a266]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a3-20020a5d53c3000000b00336751cd4ebsm3906812wrw.72.2024.01.06.11.33.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 06 Jan 2024 11:33:04 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: Gavin Smith Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3BA42BAC-B6D2-4531-BDC2-D8037E7038F7@traductaire-libre.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=gavinsmith0123@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314648 gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3385 Archived-At: On Sat, Jan 06, 2024 at 12:25:55PM +0000, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > I forgot. If I understand texinfo properly, if the manual name is > translated (and if the manual is translated) it is enough that the node > name is the same as in the target manual, so either both untranslated, > or both translated. So here, the node name only being left in English > is not so relevant. What matters most is whether the manual name is > translated or not. Am I correct? You could be translating node names in cross-references to other manauls that aren't translated yet! Then how would you know what exactly the node name should be exactly? In the case of mutually referrent manuals (a common case), this situation is impossible to avoid, unless you take on the project of translating every single referenced manual, and every manual those manuals reference, and so on, as well as maintaining all of these translations indefinitely. That is not going to happen. > Sure, but the situation where that would happen is indeed when there > are too few translated manuals to create a “monolingual ecosystem” > where manuals all link to each other. > > Supposedly, the user has installed the manual independently and knows > that there will be limitations. Just like all web sites have default 404 > pages and some have redirection, the error does not have to read like > a punishment. > > And that can be a first solution before something more elaborate is > implemented. But indeed, that depends on how the TexInfo project wants > to solve the issue. What is the issue exactly? I don't think it has been clearly stated. > Regarding the translation process, it seems like there are 2 steps here. > > - The first is the translator who is conscious of the external nodes > limitations and keeps all the external nodes in English. > > - The second is preparing the ground to link to her translation by > modifying external nodes in manuals that direct to it. > > Little by little, the discrepancy will disappear and the translated > manuals are all properly linked to each other. More likely that they link to other nodes with their English names, and then never change them. You are assuming a consistency of purpose and action across socially disparate actors that is very unlikely to exist.