From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 11:28:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <8334xcwank.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttpsuiv4.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0kwf1v7.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83jzqnv53x.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29034"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Emanuel Berg , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gerd =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 12 12:29:35 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r28el-0007PR-Os for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:29:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r28dx-0005zc-Kr; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:28:45 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r28dv-0005zS-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:28:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r28dt-00030P-7J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:28:42 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 51198 invoked by uid 3782); 12 Nov 2023 12:28:38 +0100 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pd953a91f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.83.169.31]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:28:38 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 15323 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Nov 2023 11:28:34 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.3; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312652 Archived-At: Hello, Gerd. On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 08:22:27 +0100, Gerd Möllmann wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> I must admit, both points are vague to me. We understand that > >> the increase in complexity of Elisp because of the use of > >> cl-lib is unrelated to when cl-lib is loaded. > > You don't have to understand it. The maintainers do, but you don't. > > If needed, we will point out the implications if they are relevant to > > the changes you submit to Emacs. > That is so arrogant, that I can't believe you wrote it. You have to understand that Emanuel is not a regular Emacs hacker, and many of the things he's written in this thread are not conducive to reaching a conclusion. In fact, he's been questioning how Eli's been doing his job. There is no need for this. I think Eli is doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances. Also, there's a history here. In the medium past, Emanuel posted quite a few posts that were less than unhelpful, and he was sanctioned for this. So I think it's understandable that Eli finally lost patience with Emanuel. I think I would have done the same, only much sooner. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).