From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 10:05:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27801"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Dmitry Gutov , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn?= Bidar , emacs-devel To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_T=E1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 11:06:29 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r11vh-00073v-Ly for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:06:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r11uw-0002Ik-9w; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 05:05:42 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r11uu-0002Ic-Te for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 05:05:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r11us-0003Pa-RC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 05:05:40 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 28212 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Nov 2023 11:05:35 +0100 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4fe15b72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.91.114]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:05:34 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 3048 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Nov 2023 10:05:34 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.3; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312392 Archived-At: Hello, Joćo On Wed, Nov 08, 2023 at 21:10:00 +0000, Joćo Tįvora wrote: > On Wed, Nov 8, 2023, 20:20 Dmitry Gutov <[1]dmitry@gutov.dev> wrote: > On 08/11/2023 19:18, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> > Throughout this long discussion, this indiscriminate use of >> > cl-lib has been supported only by occasional contributers.Ā >> > Those who actually maintain other people's code, apart from (I >> > think) Eli, Richard and myself, have been conspicuously >> > silent. >> I like cl-lib (it could be optimized better still, but it's good >> for certain uses), and this discussion doesn't look like it will >> reach any constructive conclusion, so it didn't seem worth it to >> spend time on it. > If it needed any confirmation, I too like cl-lib and I too help > maintain other people's code in the Emacs core tree as well as > maintaining a number of libraries I have authored. There's a difference between liking cl-lib and advocating its indiscriminate use. I don't think you've done the latter in this (and related) threads. Nobody who likes cl-lib has yet addressed the point made by Richard and (less eloquently) by me, namely that the incorporation and use of cl-lib swells the size and complexity of Emacs Lisp to the point of making maintenance difficult. What is your view on this important point? > I read many styles of Elisp here and am not really phased by any > particular programming technique being discussed here (cl-lib, seq, > pcase, verbose while loops with catch/throw, etc etc). JoĆ£o -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).