From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2023 14:09:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87y1fl9ful.fsf@gmail.com> <871qdci3fr.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87y1fkgjof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87v8aogj1u.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87o7gdhgfp.fsf@dataswamp.org> <837cn1ac24.fsf@gnu.org> <87il6lhc3u.fsf@dataswamp.org> <8334xpaagc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24385"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emanuel Berg , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 01 15:09:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyBup-000692-VG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2023 15:09:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyBuU-0002jM-6M; Wed, 01 Nov 2023 10:09:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyBuQ-0002j0-ED for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2023 10:09:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyBuN-0005du-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2023 10:09:26 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 44793 invoked by uid 3782); 1 Nov 2023 15:09:19 +0100 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4fe15848.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.88.72]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Nov 2023 15:09:18 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 31199 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Nov 2023 14:09:15 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8334xpaagc.fsf@gnu.org> X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.3; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312068 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Wed, Nov 01, 2023 at 15:07:31 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Emanuel Berg > > Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:49:57 +0100 > > There are 20 `defun' in cl-lib.el, however one, "last*", is > > commented out, so that leaves the following 19: > > cl--defalias > > cl--do-subst > > cl--old-struct-type-of > > cl--set-buffer-substring > > cl--set-substring > > cl-acons > > cl-adjoin > > cl-constantly > > cl-copy-list > > cl-digit-char-p > > cl-evenp > > cl-ldiff > > cl-list* > > cl-mapcar > > cl-oddp > > cl-pairlis > > cl-proclaim > > cl-subst > > cl-values-list > Thanks. The "cl--*" ones should also be removed, I think (as they > are not supposed to be called from outsider cl-lib.el), but other than > that, I think this is the list. And I cannot fail to point out that > the list is quite short, not nearly as long as the discussion seemed > to indicate. Maybe we need to add to the list the functions in > cl-extra.el and cl-seq.el? I think so. Richard's concern is the sheer bulk of cl-*, which adds complexity to the language by virtue of the mass of detail which both new and experienced Emacs hackers have to cope with. That complexity exists regardless of when those functions and macros get loaded. So, from that point of view, cl-extra.el and cl-seq.el are certainly relevant, as is cl-macs.el, and maybe one or two others. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).