From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:57:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30891"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Adam Porter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 11:58:39 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tERN0-0007vr-H2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 11:58:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tERLv-0005oZ-Dw; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 05:57:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tERLs-0005ms-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 05:57:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tERLq-0005rz-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 05:57:28 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 30902 invoked by uid 3782); 22 Nov 2024 11:57:10 +0100 Original-Received: from muc.de (p4fe152d9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.82.217]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 11:57:10 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 13030 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Nov 2024 10:57:09 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.3; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325581 Archived-At: Hello, Adam. On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 23:35:35 -0600, Adam Porter wrote: > Dear Alan, > I have not corresponded with you before, but as a user and contributor > myself, I appreciate your contributions to Emacs. > Now, I usually steer clear of threads like these; I see little benefit > to taking sides or passing judgment on those who are implicated. Were > you simply saying farewell, I'd be glad to wish you the same, and leave > it at that. > But I can't, in good conscience, stand by and say nothing after your > comments like this: > > This "be nice to everybody no matter what they do" and "always > > assume the best of everybody" creates the perfect atmosphere for a > > monster to flourish in. Stefan is such a monster; not all the time, > > not even most of the time, but in doing the things detailed above, > > and other things, I don't understand why you are defending him. > > I've had continual trouble over the last ~20 years with what Stefan > > has done, and how he's done it. Nobody else even comes close. As I > > said, this is the root cause of why I'm leaving the Emacs team. Most > > of the time, he is extremely helpful and efficient at maintaining, > > and I'm grateful for all the help he has given me over the years. As > > I said, a Jekyll-and-Hyde character. > These accusations are beyond unfair and unkind. You even followed it up > immediately with: > > I have not come anywhere near ad hominem. > If calling someone a "monster" is not ad hominem, I don't know what is. There's a lot of misunderstanding on the net about what ad hominem means. It means critisizing something BECAUSE of who wrote/said/did it. I have not done this at all, here. I am critisizing what Stefan has done, fairly and squarely, and the (lack of) reaction from the various maintainers. If anything, it is Eli, Stefan K, and Andrea who are guilty of a sort of "ad hominem defence". None of them appeared seriously to have considered what I have said about Stefan M and the running of the Emacs project. They have defended his action because they were HIS actions. > As well, your other comments about Stefan M., including your list of > historical grievances, are essentially a form of character > assassination. I have watched as you have publicly impugned Stefan's > motivation and character several times before; it was wrong then, and it > is even more so now, as you essentially accuse him of being a bully-- > ironic, since "bullying" seems like an apt characterization of your > comments about him. If I am attacking Stefan, it is because of what he has done. If you were being serious, you would analyse my main gripes about Stefan - that he makes big changes to Emacs without prior discussion on emacs-devel, and that he is discourteous on mailing lists - and point out where I am mistaken. I posted five anecdotes yesterday in my post to Stefan K. You could have challenged these in detail, possibly, the three current maintainers certainly could have done. None of you have done so. > > It is true that many forums degenerate into slanging matches which > > repel decent posters. emacs-devel is the opposite extreme, sort of > > touchy-feely where nobody's allowed to offend anybody else at all, > > no matter what they do, why and how they do it. This is just as > > unhealthy as the the continual abuse forums; it leads to the build > > up of repressed resentment. > I don't find that characterization of this mailing list to be accurate > at all. There is infrequent, but consistently repellent content from > certain participants; thankfully, it is usually not repaid in kind; > occasionally it draws a tame chastisement. It's to be expected, when > you consider the variety of backgrounds present, combined with strong > personalities and enthusiastic participation. There are far, far worse > forums to be found. Again, you don't address my point, here. That was that the extreme delicacy in the Emacs mailing lists is exaggerated and conter-productive. > As to participation, everyone is a volunteer here; everyone is free to > contribute or not, as he sees fit. You should do what seems best to > you, whether that means continuing to contribute, scaling back your > contributions, or ceasing to contribute. If it is no longer enjoyable > for you to contribute, for whatever reason, then you probably shouldn't, > for your own sake. I would say that to anyone, including myself. At > the same time, I would encourage you to reconsider the decision to cease > contributing altogether, for your sake and others', as your > contributions have been valuable to innumerable people; and as hobbies > go, this is a pretty good one. And there's nothing wrong with taking a > break. > But it is not okay for you to blame Stefan for your decision to leave. It is Stefan's actions, both in the past and no doubt on-going, that have had negative effects on me, and his failure to adhere to the standards that other contributors do. Stefan will have learned, one way or another, of this thread. He is quite capable of responding, himself. I doubt he will. > As you know, in the past he served as the Emacs maintainer, and now he > remains a prominent contributor, and a maintainer of some parts of > Emacs, but not of the overall project. So if you can't abide some > technical decisions that have been made by Stefan M., you ought to take > them up with Eli, Andrea, and Stefan K. And if they disagree with you > and won't overturn those decisions, and you decide to leave, you ought > to ascribe that responsibility simply and honestly, not by publicly > defaming Stefan M. like this. It does not behoove you, nor the GNU > Emacs project, to act this way. There is no question of defamation. What I have written is true and verifiable, or fair comment at the very least. You have faied to address the substatntive points I've made. I wonder why you posted. > Sincerely, > Adam -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).