From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How does one find out what file a library has been loaded from? Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2022 21:03:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83sfmxm79z.fsf@gnu.org> <83fsiwncem.fsf@gnu.org> <83mtd3ngcw.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5258"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 21 23:04:14 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oEdLC-0001Ds-PM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2022 23:04:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57232 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oEdLB-0007ME-LA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2022 17:04:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51110) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oEdKJ-0005rz-0Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2022 17:03:19 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:14262 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oEdKF-0008Pk-UB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2022 17:03:18 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 83674 invoked by uid 3782); 21 Jul 2022 21:03:11 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4fe15d83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.93.131]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2022 23:03:10 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 8015 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jul 2022 21:03:10 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:292393 Archived-At: Hello, Stefan. On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 14:37:06 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> (ELisp code shouldn't need to know and end-users shouldn't need to > >> know either (barring bugs or curiosity of course)) > > For those reasons, amongs others, there shouldn't be these transparent (i.e. > > opaque) things. > You're confusing "transparent" and "opaque". Opaque means users > can't know, transparent means they don't need to know. Very different. Let's put it this way, if the Emacs maintainers had decided to block as far as possible users' access to the actual file code has been loaded from, the result would look pretty much like what we've got. > In any case, my point is that this design decision to make the native > code compilation transparent should be reflected in the docs and should > inform how we document the features. If you are right in your distinction between "transparent" and "opaque" the matters we are talking about fall into the category "opaque". This is a massive philosophical departure, before which the philosopy was to make NOTHING in Emacs opaque to the user. If there was any debate about this, then I must have missed it. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).