From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 14:24:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <87czfopmsd.fsf@gnu.org> <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <8735gj5ox3.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38406"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Tassilo Horn , Po Lu , Michael Albinus , Stefan Kangas , Akib Azmain Turja , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 05 16:28:11 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nxrEg-0009np-Mm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 16:28:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38804 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nxrEf-0006da-Cz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 10:28:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60786) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nxrCD-0004yu-9u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 10:25:37 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:12440 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nxrBw-0002SS-Io for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 10:25:25 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 52342 invoked by uid 3782); 5 Jun 2022 14:25:02 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p2e5d54d1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.93.84.209]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 16:25:02 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 7076 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jun 2022 14:24:57 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290717 Archived-At: Hello, Stefan. On Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:39:13 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-06-05 13:29:28] wrote: > > Tassilo Horn writes: > >> So the choice of format is natural for package authors. And they > >> frequently contain markup like headings, bullet lists, bold, italics, > >> and code snippets which simply look much better than their text-only > >> alternative (even in their editing/non-rendered versions). > > I think most of the hostility non-Org users have towards Org files is > > the experience of opening one, only seeing a couple of lines with "..." > > after them and then going "AAARGH", killing the buffer, and using > > `find-file-literally' on it. > There's also the annoying delay, of course (as in "oh, so it takes > a long time to load in order to then mess it up!?") > We should take these as challenges to improve org-mode rather than as > reasons to stay away from it. We should not inflict org mode on random Emacs users, e.g. by making it necessary in order to use *Help* fully. Org mode is a complicated, difficult to learn package which cannot be to everybody's taste. To see just how complicated and difficult to learn it is, have a look at the Key index in org.info. There are 784 entries in that Key index. That is surely more key bindings than I know and use in total. A massive number of these are bindings which don't start with C-c C-. Many of these will most assuredly clash with other bindings users have set up. Don't get me wrong, I've no objection to people liking and using a package like org mode. Where I draw the line is when I am myself forced to use it as part of accessing some unrelated feature. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).